Author Topic: Problems with Tomme's rind  (Read 1773 times)

Offline soleuy

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Problems with Tomme's rind
« on: August 21, 2012, 05:38:07 PM »
This is my second Tomme, it´s only 20 days old but I´ve just decided to take it out of the cellar and cut it. The weight after salting was 631 g for 4 l of milk, so an almost 16 % yield, too much!! Even though after cutting it I stirred and held the temperature at 31 ° C, I think perhaps I didn't get the right texture. Could this be the reason ?
I can eat it, it´s not bad, but I would like be able to mature it!!
My cellar´s   temperature  is +/- 11 | C  and very humid (90 %), it floods when rains, but the cheese are high so they don't moisten. Its a very an old cellar, very high, with soil floor, and I think groundwater comes into when is rainy.


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 05:49:19 PM »
That moisture is way too high. You have to eat it young, age very cold (4-5C) or both when it's that moist.
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Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 06:32:37 PM »
Thanks, I´m eating it!! What would be your advice for the next? My idea is to try to get a better drain of the whey, during the stirring phase.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 06:53:04 PM »
Your tomme should be cooked and done with the whey release by the time it settles under whey. What is the curd size? It needs to be small, like fine peas, about 5-6 mm cubes. Draining whey in mold isn't usually the approach with tomme.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 01:27:21 AM »
Also, no point in trying it in 20 days. There is no texture, flavor or aromatic development. You get nothing out of it.   Wait at least 45 days, 60 if you can. It's a surprize. If it's too difficult for you to wait (Something we ALL go through!), make a bunch of short-ripening cheeses in the meantime so you have plenty of other things to open during that long long long long wait!

Rind looks like you didn't turn it often enough and you didn't rub it or controlled it enough. A Linuxboy says - either the humidity is too high for this temperature, or this temperature is too high for this humidity. One of these things need to go down.

Cook the curd until it has shrunk. It should be springy and mat together instantly, but not developing any "skin". Rather than cooking it in 31°C over 30 minutes, raise the temperature very slowly so at the end of those 30 minutes it will be at 37°C.  Which recipe did you follow? Linuxboy has a very good formula on this forum. It's also very forgiving and liberal.


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Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 08:29:40 AM »
I used a recipe from an Argentine book,  similar to Linuxboy´s one. Differences: 1. I used pasteurized milk, because I´m just beginning with cheese making so I want to leave milk contamination out. My idea is eventually  turn to raw milk 2. I maintained the curd under whey at 31 ° C stirring for 30 minutes.
In my next I would "Stir and increase temp to 100 F over 30 minutes. Hold at 100F until the curd is at the right texture. You can tell this by pressing a tablespoon of curd in your hand. It should mat together slightly and be somewhat firm"
I cut pea size.
I understand what you say about the ripening time, I decide to cut because it wasn't worth keeping it and it was almost impossible to rub it because of the soft rind.
I don't have any experience in ripening, apart from Taleggio and thee Tommes I  made fresh cheeses like Stracchino, mozzarella and Petite Suisse. So perhaps I didn't controlled it well during these 20 days.
My cellar is a very rustic place, it´s 100 old (surely it was a cheese cave in the past). I has nothing apart from some shelves and a light I recently installed. As i told you, floods when it rains  but the water drains quickly when it stops. The last year´s climate has been very dry but it is changing and august in general and this week in particular was very rainy so in this moment I have 40 cm of water ( i saw a frog yesterday!!)so  I go in wearing  boots !!!

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 08:40:18 AM »
if you do not do the cook phase, then you must cut smaller, to 4 mm, stir gently at first until the curds firm up, and then stir until the curds let go of enough moisture. There are two ways to help the curds let go of whey: through agitation, and through heat. If you are not using heat, best to compensate accordingly to make sure that the final moisture is appropriate. I would also cut the multiplier back to 2.5.

I know some people say that curds need to drain in the mold and that the mold is there to help finish up the wheel, but in my experience this is not so for tomme. For tomme, the curds must be completely done, and settle under whey to fuse into a solid cheese mass, and then the mold and cloth are there mostly to create a smooth outer rind and surface. My tommes when I make them and plop the curd mass in the mold, they settle maybe 1/2" max, meaning I finish the moisture target in the vat. Maybe try cooking next time, see how that goes? Tommes should not be quite that moist unless you have an excellent handle on affinage with ability to change aging conditions.

Good luck!
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Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 09:17:56 AM »
Thanks for your very precise advices. Perhaps I try  tomorrow!!!

Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 02:58:15 PM »
Hello : I've done a new   Tomme. I rise the temperature to 37¬C and stirred  the curd until it was sticky and the moisture was less than in my first ones. Nevertheless perhaps I could drain it more under whey: The cheese continued to drain in the mold and the pH after 2 hours in the mold was 6,3. At he moment it's still in the mold at room temperature (Today it's incredible hot for a winter day 21° )till the pH drops.
I've got doubts about the first steps after salting.
In my recipe you have to wipe it with light brine  three  times on alternate days and then they scrub it   twice a week during all the aging period, turning it over.
When you turn it over do you scrub the two sides? .

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 03:15:01 PM »
Please don't take this as a biased message, because I truly think there are many great recipes out there, but read my recipe and notes, and the tomme thread. I wrote it in a way with a great emphasis on teaching vital, core cheesemaking skills and best habits.

Draining under whey doesn't happen. It doesn't drain when it sits. Pressing and fusing under whey is the reason to settle/press under whey. It forms a uniform curd mass instead of many little pieces.

Tommes are very forgiving for the rind treatment. What kind of rind are you trying to achieve?
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Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 04:41:31 PM »
I've just read the Tomme thread, it´s very clear!! As I said to you I din´t press the curd under whey, to let it  knit, I  wasn't aware of this possibility; but when I put the curd into the mold I pressed a little with my fingers and perhaps this worked.
I don´t know about rind treatments, but for a beginner I would rather choose the simplest one: which is your advice?
And excuse me if I use a confusing English,  I have to take classes to improve it but i never find the moment.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 05:18:39 PM »
the easiest is to form an inclusion-free surface, and then let it run wild, brushing/scraping it back 1x/week or so.
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Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 07:08:27 PM »
Thanks!!
Let me know if I understood you: tomorrow when pH reaches 5,4 , I let it dry, then brine and then I take it to the cellar and brush/scrap it once a week. Is it necessary to take another cares during the first days?

Offline soleuy

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 04:21:31 PM »
  I have two Tomes in the cellar , I think  they are less moisture than the first ones and it would be possible to mature them. I decided to" let them  run wild, brushing/scraping it back 1x/week or so."as linuxboy adviced me. But on one of them a week after I started aging it , cat´s fur appeared, all the cheese was covered by this white fur. I read at the forum that "Mucor is a necessary condition of the classic gray-rinded tomme of the Savoie" so perhaps this wasn't  bad news but I didn't know what to do, so I brushed it  Is this the correct proceeding?

Offline Tomer1

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Re: Problems with Tomme's rind
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 03:37:36 AM »
Im not sure if there is a right or wrong, just different paths.  It might come back if something more resilient wont grow on your tomme.
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