Author Topic: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?  (Read 15215 times)

Laurels Crown

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 04:25:39 PM »
Hi folks,
I really appreciate everyone who has weighed in on my dilemma.  I am pleased to report I have made 16 lbs of cheese (stilton, bel paese, cheddar) and all batches are EXCELLENT!

My number one change has been decreasing the time to bring it to temperature before adding the cultures.  I am taking careful stock of all the other suggestions to extra ensure success but so far - so good.

Thanks for the help - you saved my sanity (and my hair)  :D

BobE102330

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 06:07:59 PM »
I haven't had this issue, but how quickly should one raise the temperature up to culturing temperature?  I can see I got lucky leaving my milk out while sterilizing, but is 3 degrees or so per 5 minutes fast enough to usually preclude problems?   I am using pasteurized milk, so it probably isn't as much of an issue as with fresh milk, but I want to be safe once I get fresh.  Thanks.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 10:02:24 PM »
When I start heating my milk, I want it to be ready to go in no more than 45 minutes. So if I am going from cold milk at 36F to 86F, that's 50 degrees in 45 minutes. At 3 degrees per 5 minutes, that would take you 83 minutes to get to ripening temperature. I would consider that too slow and could allow contaminants to begin to multiply. Figure that 1/2 of that time is within a range where the bacteria are really active, so you have over 40 minutes of time for contaminants to multiply. Bacteria double their population every 20 minutes, so the contaminants would increase at least 4 fold during that time.

BobE102330

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 12:09:06 AM »
Thanks Sailor.  A cheese to you!

Laurels Crown

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 12:42:27 AM »
At the risk of a dumb question......so, I have eliminated the spongy cheese by shortening the warm up time and the cheese will look great BUT would the cheese be considered "contaminated" if I were to continue using the same milk source(assuming they continued whatever they were doing) or do the cheese cultures overcome the other bacteria if growing properly?  I am thinking from a commercial standpoint.

I hope that question makes sense......

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 05:07:01 AM »
Well, you always want to use the best and cleanest milk possible and if you think commercially - you would test the milk and look the the numbers to make sure it meets your standards.

It is very possible that the long heat-up cycle gave the upper hand to existing bacteria which out-competed your inoculated cultures. Remember that pathogens love un-acidic environment and body-like temperatures. Add the food (lactose) to it and you are giving them a highway for multiplying.

You can help preventing it with shortning heating stage, pre-inoculation the milk, or switching strains of your starter culture (for example if you are using MA4001, switch to MA4002, or if you use Flora Danica, change to Aroma B or Probat 222). Other than that, if you are using raw milk you should always make sure it is regulated and tested.

CdnMorganGal

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 03:20:04 AM »
How would switching from MA4001 to MA4002 help?

What is pre-inoculating the milk?

In my case, I am working with raw milk.

Thank you.

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 04:33:36 AM »
Some cultures are made to do identical work but they have different strains of the same species. They have similar name - only the last digit is different.  Some examples are MA4000, MA4001, MA4002, or MM100, MM101, MM103, TA50, TA51 to 56, TA60 to 62, LBC 81 to 82, MA11 to 19, etc.

It usually is no concern for the home cheesemaker, but creameries rotate cultures regularly to prevent phage: If something attacks a given strain of culture, when they switch to the next number in the series that phage will not know how to attack a totally new strain so it will die off and disappear. The cheese however will be exactly the same.

It's just like how Influenza get smart on us. We develop immunity to one strain and then it switches the strain on us and we get the flu, even though we got a flu shot, right? Next season the new shot will outsmart that influenza strain.  In the case of cheese, the culture needs to behave like that smart influenza. Does that make sense?

Pre inoculating is a technique to propagate some lactic bacterium slowly in pasteurized milk, to grow back a few off the flavor elements that were lost during pasteurization. When you do that, you also create a competition of species which could have the benefit of defeating or weakening some pathogens.

DavidCNX

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2017, 12:21:05 AM »
Hi .... I am getting this problem too... making blue cheese.... the final results are fine, edible and tasty.
My neighbout and I both made the same Forme d'Ambert cheese over the weekend
Same Milk, same culture, different houses. His was fine - mine is spongy! I bleached everything to within an inch of his life.
The main difference was that I was making bread at the same time, both sour dough (wild yeasts)
and normal commercial yeast bread.

The cheese smells and tastes fine, just spongy and expanding in the mold.

I'm guessing that it's harmless yeast contamination.....

Oh and btw, he has 4 indoor dogs and I have 2 outdoer dogs.... both made the cheese indoors.

Last week I made Camemberts, outside, and no problem, but as it's such a wet cheese to start with, maybe it didn't show up!


5ittingduck

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2017, 02:42:57 AM »
I would be blaming the breadmaking.
It's not wise to mix the two endeavours!

Offline Gregore

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2017, 04:21:35 AM »
I never make. Cheese  in the kitchen , that is my wife's yeasty domain. Kombucha , bread and yogurt are all made in there . So my cheese is made in the dining room or a spare bedroom.  I use a induction heater to warm the milk.

DavidCNX

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 11:10:30 AM »
OK so the cheese has sunk again today.... just like overproofed bred. Still smells just like cheese, no other detectable odours (Not like the time I made the mistake of disinfecting everything with Dettol!)....

I make my cams outside, not sure why I don't with the blue, maybe trying to avoid flies at the popcorn stage!... Maybe I didn't have anyone to help me move my 8 gallon pot outside... I do live in the tropics, so keeping it all warm is only a problem for early morning a few weeks in the middle of winter :)

I've remembered why I make the blue indoors.... it's so I can watch TV whilst I'm doing all that stirring!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:20:44 PM by DavidCNX »

AnnDee

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 01:03:52 PM »
Do you, by any chance, use LM culture on it? Like LM57?

DavidCNX

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Re: After Forming, Swelling/Spongy - Yeast or Coliform Problem?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 01:19:39 PM »
Flora Danica.....