Author Topic: Havarti again  (Read 957 times)

Offline scasnerkay

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Havarti again
« on: October 20, 2012, 10:43:50 PM »
Havarti #2,  Cheese # 33
I think I will keep track of my cheese makes until I reach 50 of them!

HAVARTI # 2
Ingredients:
2 Gallons Pasturized, non-homoginized milk (pH 6.6)
1/8 tsp Flora Danica
1/8 tsp MM100
¼ tsp Calcium chloride in ¼ cup water
1.75 ml calf rennet mixed in 1/4 cup water
1 generous Tblsp sea salt

Flocculation Multiplier 3.5
Targets: Drain pH 6.4, Press pH 5.8 to 5.9

Procedure:
Calibrated pH meter and thermometers, and sterilized tools in boiling water
12:40:  Milk to 86-88 degrees. Sprinkled on cultures, waited 5 mins and stirred in for 30 mins ripening.
1:15: Tested pH still 6.6.  Temperature still about 88 degrees.  Stirred in calcium.
1:20:  Stirred in rennet. Flocculation 15.5 mins, with multiplier of 3.5, aiming for clean break at about 54 mins.
2:20:  Clean break. Cut curd ½ inch. Let cut curd rest 5 mins. Tested pH at 6.5, temp = 82. Gently stirred curd for 15 minutes and brought temp back to 88 °F. Then let curds rest 5 mins.
3:00:  Drained off about 1/3 of whey. Added about 3 cups of 130°F water to raise the temp to 94°F and stirred for 5 min. Added more water to raise to a temperature of 98 °F.  Added salt and stirred for 15 minutes at 97-98 °F. Target had been 30 mins, but pH was then 6.4. Let curds rest 5 mins.
3:20: Drained off liquid and stirred to break up the curds. Curds are quite tasty and squeaky!
Scooped the cheese into the hoop, pressing down firmly, but it would not all quite fit. Had to just eat some more….
3:30:  Pressed with 10 # for 15 mins, keeping warm in pot. (pH 6.3)
3:45:  Flipped and pressed in press at 10 # for 30 mins. (pH 6.2)
4:30:  Flipped and pressed at 15 # for 30 mins. (pH 6.1)
5:00:  Flipped and pressed at 20 # for 30 mins. (pH5.9)
6:00:  Tested pH of whey at 5.8, and took cheese out of press. Weight 2 # 4 oz. Placed into water bath.
7:00:  Into saturated brine.
11:00: Out of brine.
Susan


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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 06:50:33 AM »
Good luck! Looks like the make went well, well done!

Offline PeterNZ

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2013, 04:43:03 PM »
I know it is an old post. Just out of curiosity and interest. I am more the "gut feel" cheese maker. But I wonder if someone could please give me some answers to these questions:

Flora Danica contains the following bacteria:
Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis
Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis biovar diacetylactis
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subspecies cremoris

And Danisco’s MM100 has
Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis
Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subspecies biovar diacetylactis

So why add two cultures which have the same bacteria? And why add a ¼ of a tsp of culture in total to 8 liters of milk? Doesn't this double the amount of culture? I was also wondering if someone could point me to information about percentages of bacteria in those cultures. Like how many % does L. lactis ssp. lactis make in Flora Danica etc. Is this information available online somewhere? And is this the reason why there are two cultures which appear almost identical in this recipe?

What is the reasoning behind the culture selection?

Thank you for your time.

Cheers

Peter
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 05:19:59 PM »
Quote
So why add two cultures which have the same bacteria?
Strain-specific attributes are not the same as specie-specific attributes. Enzymatic specificity exists at the specie level, as does metabolic performance (because proteomics and metabolomics are linked). Meaning flavor, acid development, synergistic amino acid utilization, etc are up to each strain.
Quote
And why add a ¼ of a tsp of culture in total to 8 liters of milk? Doesn't this double the amount of culture?
I don't understand this question. Are you asking why some cheeses use more or less starter amount?
Quote
I was also wondering if someone could point me to information about percentages of bacteria in those cultures.
Trade secret. I have very close approximations, though, from reverse engineering. Why do you want to know?
Quote
And is this the reason why there are two cultures which appear almost identical in this recipe?
There are many reasons to make culture cocktails. Overlap is usually not an issue. Enzymatic potential or flavor trajectory development are the common reasons for creating cocktails.
Quote
What is the reasoning behind the culture selection?
Many. E.G.:
- acidification parameters
- proteomic cascade engineering with or without gene sequencing (can do based on basic assays during strain selection)
- phage protection
- historical use/trail-error
- aroma/texture/openness
- initial flavor precursor development to match affinage and sale curve (eg citrate metabolites)

etc. It's a multi-system perspective. Have to start with the problem definition first.
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Offline scasnerkay

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 06:10:03 PM »
I have to admit that I was just following a recipe, so I cannot express the reason for 2 different cultures. But, I can tell you that the cheese was really good both times I made it. So I would probably make it the same next time!!
Susan
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Offline PeterNZ

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 06:21:58 PM »
I hope you forgive me but most of what you say goes way over my head as an amateur cheese maker.
Quote
So why add two cultures which have the same bacteria?
Strain-specific attributes are not the same as specie-specific attributes. Enzymatic specificity exists at the specie level, as does metabolic performance (because proteomics and metabolomics are linked). Meaning flavor, acid development, synergistic amino acid utilization, etc are up to each strain.
Quote
And why add a ¼ of a tsp of culture in total to 8 liters of milk? Doesn't this double the amount of culture?
I don't understand this question. Are you asking why some cheeses use more or less starter amount?
My understanding is that with the amount of culture you add you add a certain number of bacteria cells. I usually add 1/8 Flora Danica to 10 liters. The combination of 1/8 tsp MM100 and 1/8 tsp of Flora Danica will add double the mount of bacteria cells. Right? So what is the reason for adding double the amount?
Quote
Quote
I was also wondering if someone could point me to information about percentages of bacteria in those cultures.
Trade secret. I have very close approximations, though, from reverse engineering. Why do you want to know?
Because I want to understand the differences between the cultures. Especially in this case where two almost identical cultures are combined. If the percentages are the same I do not understand the reason for two cultures. In what do they differ?
Quote
Quote
And is this the reason why there are two cultures which appear almost identical in this recipe?
There are many reasons to make culture cocktails. Overlap is usually not an issue. Enzymatic potential or flavor trajectory development are the common reasons for creating cocktails.
Quote
What is the reasoning behind the culture selection?
Many. E.G.:
- acidification parameters
- proteomic cascade engineering with or without gene sequencing (can do based on basic assays during strain selection)
- phage protection
- historical use/trail-error
- aroma/texture/openness
- initial flavor precursor development to match affinage and sale curve (eg citrate metabolites)

etc. It's a multi-system perspective. Have to start with the problem definition first.

My question is still, why add two almost identical cultures? Why did the author design this recipe like that? Do they know "trade secrets" we don't know? How is Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis, Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris, Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis biovar diacetylactis different in Flora Danica and MM100?

Cheers

Peter
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 06:51:51 PM »
Quote
I hope you forgive me but most of what you say goes way over my head as an amateur cheese maker.
I'll try to explain better.
Quote
My understanding is that with the amount of culture you add you add a certain number of bacteria cells.
Yep.
Quote
I usually add 1/8 Flora Danica to 10 liters. The combination of 1/8 tsp MM100 and 1/8 tsp of Flora Danica will add double the mount of bacteria cells. Right? So what is the reason for adding double the amount?
Basically, faster acidification in this case. In other cases, may be different reasons.
Quote
Because I want to understand the differences between the cultures. Especially in this case where two almost identical cultures are combined.
They are not almost identical. FD is a multi species undefined. MM is specific strains, defined.
Quote
If the percentages are the same I do not understand the reason for two cultures. In what do they differ?
They are not the same percentages. And the enzymatic potential is different. And the initial aroma and flavor profile are different. And the acidity curve is different.
Quote
why add two almost identical cultures?
They are not almost identical.
Quote
Why did the author design this recipe like that?
MM and FD together provide a solid basis for phage-resistant blend that creates both good flavor and good aroma, with some slight anti-bitterness properties.
Quote
Do they know "trade secrets" we don't know?
Possibly. I know in my recipe designs sometimes that's the case. Most of what people do in real life is trial and error, though, but starting with a solid R&D foundation.
Quote
How is Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis, Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris, Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis biovar diacetylactis different in Flora Danica and MM100?
Overall, FD will give you slightly faster lysis (earlier flavor) and MM will give you faster acidification (shorter shift in the plant). If I was formulating, those are the primary reasons I would use for the blend (I do the same thing in my gouda, BTW, for small scale production when people don't want to buy specialty cultures)
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Offline dthelmers

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 08:50:07 AM »
PeterNZ,
When I saw this recipe my first thought was that yet another person found FD to be somewhat "lazy", that is a slow acidifier. when I started making Cheddar type cheeses I was using FD because I like the flavor it produces, but the acidification was slow to start, so I switched to MM100. It seems like FD also produces a lighter texture by more production of CO2, and my quark producing friend loves it for this. So when I looked at this recipe, I figured MM100 was being used as the acidifier and FD for the flavor profile, and perhaps to lighten the texture. Try the same cheese using FD one time and MM100 the next, and you'll see what I mean, they each have their own "personalities".
Dave in CT
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Offline bgreen

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 04:28:30 PM »
Hi All

I am looking at making this cheese this weekend..... i am in New Zealand and i don't know that i can get MM100 so think i am limited to Flora Danica anyway... hopefully i will like that variation :).  I take it that it will still resemble a Havarti with only slight differences in the flavour... aroma... instead of utilising a combination of both cultures.... is that assumption correct?

I also had two quick questions:

1. What is the pH target for adding the culture to the milk?  I could not find this

2. Also when i place in the water bath prior to brining... what temperature should the water be?

Thanks for your help ... cheers Bruce

Offline Mike Richards

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »


1. What is the pH target for adding the culture to the milk?  I could not find this

2. Also when i place in the water bath prior to brining... what temperature should the water be?


Since I'm here, I'll take a stab at these and I'll leave it to someone who knows better than I do to correct me if I'm wrong.

1.  There isn't a pH target for adding the culture.  The milk comes at a certain pH and that's what you get.  The temperature for adding the culture is more important, and that's in his make notes.

2. The water should be cool.  Warm curds absorb cool water, which is the goal with this step.  What is cool?  I'm not sure.  I just take the cold water out of my tap and use that.  If I were to just make a wild guess, I'd say around 60 degrees, but I'll leave it to someone else to give you a better answer.
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Offline bgreen

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 05:55:27 PM »
Hi sorry I am getting myself confused...I meant to say what was the target Ph after adding the culture and ripening the milk before you go to the renneting stage.....this does not seem clear to me..thanks for your help..cheers

Offline dthelmers

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 09:10:40 AM »
I wait until I see it move 0.1 from the milk, so usually 6.5
Dave in CT

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 02:02:14 PM »
Hi bgreen,

I don't have a pH meter, but from what I gathered, the initial readings are usually amounts of change as Dave indicated (i.e. add culture, wait for 0.1 drop in pH) rather than "add culture wait for specific value of pH".

Peter, here's how I think of things.  There are different species of cultures (i.e. ... cremoris), but just like there are different species of mamals (i.e. humans), there are different strains within those (i.e. different people).  So, FD and MM100 might have the same "mamals" in them, they might have people with different characteristics - so they do the job differently.  Think of strains as "clones", so using different strains is still using a human to do the job, but you're using clones of different people so they won't do the job exactly the same way.  This metaphor only gets you so far I suspect, but it helps me.

Also, mixing the two cultures, even if they used the same strains and similar amounts, by adding the MM100 this would, effectively, half the amount of the Leuconostoc mesenteroides subspecies cremoris relative to the other 3. 

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Offline bgreen

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 05:48:23 PM »
Thanks Dave and Jeff for the further advice.. will incorporate into my cheese making this weekend!   cheers Bruce

Offline bgreen

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Re: Havarti again
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 05:33:18 PM »
Hi all

Well i tried this recipe in the weekend... i used a Primer culture as suggested from Sailors post... and what a difference in ripening times... often with a DVI i was waiting several hours.... with this, my milk was at 6.55pH in 10minutes.

I followed the recipe and all was well till the following step and i think i made a mistake:

Quote
Drained off about 1/3 of whey. Added about 3 cups of 130°F water to raise the temp to 94°F and stirred for 5 min. Added more water to raise to a temperature of 98 °F.  Added salt and stirred for 15 minutes at 97-98 °F. Target had been 30 Min's, but pH was then 6.4. Let curds rest 5 Min's.

I drained off 1.5 litres of whey thinking that was 1/3 of the whey.  Added fresh hot water as per instructions.... but my pH remained at 6.52.  Noted at this time that the total volume in the pot now seemed to be at 7.5 litres not the original 8 litres i started with.  Hit the temps in the guide.  i stirred for 30 Min's... no change... stirred another 15Min's.... no change in pH.  Curd tasted fine.... firm and squeaky.... so i decided to proceed with the next steps. 

Even at the end of pressing.... pH was still showing at 6.5.

So i am wondering: what i did wrong and how to correct for next time?  I am also wondering what the likely effect on the cheese will be..... by the following day... structure and form of the cheese is looking good.

And lastly when i should wax this cheese?

Thanks for all your advise and help

Cheers Bruce