Author Topic: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold  (Read 5855 times)

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2012, 09:33:53 PM »
Well..... to be perfectly fair,
Lets assume for the sake of argument that PVC is in fact safe for drinking water. That does not necessarily mean that it is safe for food. From what I have read- the FDA and others have concluded that PVC is non-reactive with water. Chemically speaking, food is much much different than water. You have the potential there for much more complicated chemical reactions (Also keep in mind, there are many different types of PVC- some more dangerous than others, I would hope the kind used in plumbing is safer but one would need to check for sure that they are using a type that is "ok").
I am not sure this topic is as simple as concluding it's safe for cheese since its safe for water.
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 08:16:13 AM »
Also...consider that most water supplies are neutral or near neutral pH-wise, whereas foods range from very acidic to fairly basic.

In the case of cheeses they range from mildly acidic to fairly acidic. 

Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 08:26:39 AM »
True, but most cheeses are shielded from the PVC with cheesecloth.  Others like camembert are in there minimally.  If the acidity of the cheese were reacting with the PVC, I'd expect to see pitting.  I haven't.
Joy

Offline BobE102330

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 10:45:37 AM »
Below are a couple of links that came up in a Google search for "PVC food contact".  I read through several of them, and it seems that there is nothing inherently unsafe about PVC in contact with food, although there may be some questions about certain additives.  Saran Wrap was originally PVC, now it is LDPE, which is not as effective a barrier as PVC.  Another case of a speculative "environmental benefit" that makes the  product not work as well.  [/political rant off]

That said, I would much rather buy a known safe mold at twice Yoav's price than hack up a piece of sewer pipe with unknown additives in an attempt to save a couple of bucks.  The molds I bought will last many years, so the amortized cost will be almost nothing per cheese.  I understand sticker shock when getting started making cheese and trying to keep the cost reasonable until you figure out if you really like making cheese and the results are worth your time.  My first hard cheeses were pressed in a cheesemaking.com basket mold with a plate follower.  Made for odd shapes, but got me going successfully. 

Now you have my two cents, if it is worth that much. 

http://www.pvc.org/en/faqs/7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_wrap

Aside - I've placed a couple of orders with Yoav, he has been a pleasure to deal with and a fountain of knowledge.  That is prices are the best I've found is a nice bonus on top of supporting a guy who gives so much to the forum.  I am not connected to him in any way other than being an appreciative customer.  This forum is a no shill zone.  ;)

Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »
Thanks for the links.  After reading them, it sounds like there are problems with the plasticizers used with PVC in making film, but that the solid PVC is perfectly safe  The biggest problem I have with PVC is that it's so thick. 
Joy


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2012, 03:17:45 PM »
Issue with PVC is primarily in impurities and in unpolymerized vinyl chloride. If it has reacted sufficiently during polymerization, it should be food safe. It's challenging to know if what you're getting is safe without testing. Other materials such as HDPE and PP or blends inherently do better in terms of food safety because of the manufacturing process and raw material input. With the price difference being very small, there should be no reason to use PVC in cheesemaking when there are better alternatives.

water supply is a different issue, conditions are way different. I don't know what everyone does for cleaning, but I at times use COP tanks or caustic soda, and I sure wouldn't want to use them with PVC.
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Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2012, 02:42:34 PM »
Thanks for the links.  After reading them, it sounds like there are problems with the plasticizers used with PVC in making film, but that the solid PVC is perfectly safe  The biggest problem I have with PVC is that it's so thick.

Ummm,
That's quite a definitive conclusion to come to based on a wikipedia entry on plastic wrap and a page which appears to have been funded/influenced by the vinyl industry and provides- as far as I see, no citations to any real scientific studies.
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline botanist

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2012, 02:37:09 AM »
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).

Begley, 1997, attached
During the 1970s K. Figge (Figge 1972, 1980) studied the migration of antioxidants from HDPE, PVC and
PS into food oils and fat simulants. These studies showed that the migration to the oils and fat simulants was predictable. The migration of the antioxidant butylated hydroxy toluene (BHT) and two hydrocarbons (Ci8H38 and C23H66) from polyolefins (LDPE, HDPE, PP, and polyethylene with 5% and 13% vinyl acetate copolymer (EVA)) into heptane, water, ethanol/water solutions, «-octanol, rc-octadecane, corn oil, HB307, tributyrin, and trioctanoin at temperatures from 24 to 60°C was studied (Chang et al. 1982). They concluded from these
studies that migration of antioxidants is predictable. The amount of migration is controlled by diffusion
through the polymer according to Fick's 2nd Law and diffusion follows Arrhenius type behaviour. In
another extensive study (A. D. Little 1983) the migration of BHT, Irganox 1010, styrene, an organo-tin stabilizer and the plasticizer dioctyl adipate were measured from HDPE, LDPE, PS, impact PS, PVC and EVA into many food simulating liquids and foods. From this study it can be concluded that migration is predictable and the amount migrating to food will always be less than to the food simulant, especially food oil.

attached -- Ducruet et al, 2007  SORPTION OF AROMA COMPOUNDS IN PET AND PVC
DURING THE STORAGE OF A STRAWBERRY SYRUP

Vinyl chloride in water (attached):  Vinyl chloride is primarily of concern as a potential contaminant from some grades of  PVC pipe and is best controlled by specification of material quality.

I. Steinera, L. Scharfa, F. Fialab & J. Washüttla . Volume 15, Issue 7, 1998, pages 812-817.  Migration of di‐(2‐ethylhexyl) phthalate from PVC child articles into saliva and saliva simulant.

Fantoni L., Simoneau C. (2003) European survey on the contamination of homogenised baby food by epoxidised soybean oil from plasticised PVC gaskets. Food Additives and Contaminants: Part A: Chemistry, Analysis, Control, Exposure & Risk Assessment 20(11) 1087-1096

Z. G. Tsvetanova and E. J. Hoekstra. 2012. Assessment of microbial growth potential of PVC flexible tubing in contact with drinking water. Water Science & Technology: Water Supply Vol 12 No 4 pp 489–495

Simoneau C., Hannaert P. (authors), Sarigiannis D. (editor) (2009) Effect of the Nature and Concentration of Phthalates on Their Migration from PVC Materials Under Dynamic Simulated Conditions of Mouthing. Publication Office of the European Union, Luxembourg, JRC Scientific and Technical Report, EUR 23813 EN.  This is about toys

http://www.foodsmart.govt.nz/whats-in-our-food/chemicals-nutrients-additives-toxins/plastic-packaging/

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is heavy, stiff and transparent and often used with added plasticisers such as phthalates or adipates. Common uses of PVC with plasticisers include commercial-grade cling films for over-wrap of trays in supermarkets and filled rolls at delicatessens.
From commercial cling films made from PVC – DEHA: diethylhexyl adipate is a food-compatible phthalate plasticiser and tiny amounts may migrate into fatty food (such as meat or cheese), especially with heating. DEHP (diethylhexyl phthalate) is another plasticiser that has been of concern because it can migrate, and for that reason it is not used in food-related products in USA. It has been used as jar or bottle seals and lid inserts of bottles, spreads and juices and may be in printing ink for labels.

I, too, thought that PVC was safe for cheese molds since it is used for water intake into residences and businesses.  Glad I don't use that!
before goats, store bought milk = chevre & feta, with goats, infinite possibilities, goatie love, lotta work cleaning out the barn!

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2012, 05:26:03 PM »
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).

I like you! :)

(Are you really a Botanist by the way?)

<Fires a cheese toward botanist>
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:00 PM »

 (cheese does have fat, right?).


Heck no!  It's like calories in donuts...once you break the donut, all the calories escape...so all you have to do is break it first, wait a few seconds and then eat!  This same approach works with cheese...break it first, wait a few seconds and then have at it...all the fat has escaped into the ozone layer!!

 :)


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Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2012, 06:52:51 PM »

Heck no!  It's like calories in donuts...once you break the donut, all the calories escape...so all you have to do is break it first, wait a few seconds and then eat!  This same approach works with cheese...break it first, wait a few seconds and then have at it...all the fat has escaped into the ozone layer!!

 :)

He he, sounds like the bill payer's motto- it ain't a bill if it ain't open!
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2012, 07:31:46 PM »
What's a bill?   haha

Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2012, 08:01:59 PM »
What's a bill?   haha

A ducks nose. LMAO

Offline botanist

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2012, 01:28:49 AM »
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).


I like you! :)

(Are you really a Botanist by the way?)

<Fires a cheese toward botanist>


Thanks for the cheese!  Yes, I have a Masters and PhD in Botany and my profession is horticultural research in tree fruit and nut crops.  So I am definitely into information gathering of a scientific bent.  The latest update on food safety of PVC:

http://www.packaginglaw.com/2546_.shtml
http://www.packaginglaw.com/3391_.shtml
http://www.packaginglaw.com/3186_.shtml
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm260478.htm
http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/PVC_Policies_Around_The_World.html
http://consumerproductslaw.com/page/1/consumer-products-law.jsp;jsessionid=322E7323A91A46C530566124675213E8?articleId=1209

NSF International (National Sanitation Foundation) approves Schedule 40 Type 1 pipe for potable water only
PVC Materials:
The material used in the manufacture of the pipe shall be domestically produced rigid polyvinyl chloride (PVC) compound, Type I Grade I, with a Cell Classification of 12454 as defined in ASTM D1784, trade name designation H707 PVC. This compound shall be white or gray in color as specified, and shall be approved by NSF International for use with potable water (NSF Std 61).
before goats, store bought milk = chevre & feta, with goats, infinite possibilities, goatie love, lotta work cleaning out the barn!

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2012, 01:42:40 AM »
Thanks for the cheese!  Yes, I have a Masters and PhD in Botany and my profession is horticultural research in tree fruit and nut crops.  So I am definitely into information gathering of a scientific bent.  The latest update on food safety of PVC:

Very cool, 
Botany is a really neat discipline. Part of why I asked is I am acquainted with some botanists up at UC Davis.
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }