Author Topic: Emmentaler lets try this again  (Read 12020 times)

Offline H-K-J

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Emmentaler lets try this again
« on: October 26, 2012, 06:47:12 PM »
Last one was a total disaster but I aint no quitter so tomorrow gonuh get some milk and make an attempt at another one :o
besides I wahna use my press again, it's been sittin on it's laurels long enough >:(
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« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 04:21:07 PM by H-K-J »
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Offline Mike Richards

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 07:57:36 PM »
Good luck!  I'm looking forward to hearing about and seeing pictures of your experience.
If only I could make cheese as well as I grow a mustache...

Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 02:30:55 PM »
I jumped the gun as usual  :-[ no milk today so no make tomorrow.
so this gives me a moment to clarify a couple of questions on the cutting and stirring of the curd.
1. my recipe calls for 1/4 inch curd cut, I was thinking bigger?
2.after cutting how long should it rest before stirring?
3.Just how gentle is stir gently (I'm thinkin more like a giggle at first then just a little more aggressive as the batch moves on)
Any thoughts or help with this as this is where I believe I went wrong on my first effort.
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Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 02:43:10 PM »
Hi H-K-J,

I've never made swiss, but if you're using H/P milk, then I find that after cutting, even if you let it rest 5-10 minutes before you start to stir, you have to just jiggle the curds at first.  I use a plastic spatula (egg flipping kind, not the one for cleaning icing out of bowls - is there any other use for those - oh yah, getting the last of the peanut butter, but I digress) and just insert it down one of the cuts.  Then, just jiggle enough to get the curds to set up a gentle wave motion.  This gets them moving around a bit, prevents matting, and helps them to expel whey and firm up more.  Eventally, the curds shrink up as the whey expells and you can start to do something that resembles stirring.  However, all you really need to do is move the curds.  My last make, though, no matter how gentle I was, the curds just shattered, so I won't be using that brand of milk again. 

I also used some non-homogenized milk recently, and it sets up a lot firmer and the curds were much more enjoyable to work with. 

- Jeff
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 04:03:34 PM »
Hi Jeff
the milk I plan on using is 3 gal pasteurized whole and 2 gal 2%
I read somewhere on the forum that alps use a lower fat content although my memory aint what it used to be ???
anyway that is kind-of were I'm at.
thanks for the help though ;D 
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 07:08:34 PM »
I'll refresh your memory for you then.

Some alpine cheeses are part skim, while others are full fat. You can go either way and you will be fine.
A lot of the current small producers in Switzerland would make full fat cheese.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 08:59:28 PM »
So now  a new thought all 5 gallon pasteurized whole milk?
But the end,  the point of cutting the curd the gentle stir to the more how do I say, less gentle stir of the curd
how do I keep the curd from drying out
less cook time? this is where i am getting lost.

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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2012, 09:52:00 PM »
would have to see your recipe to tell you much
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 12:51:30 AM »
Here are a few notes for you to ponder.

Never made an Emmentaler, but I've done some Goutalers, Maasdammers,and Beauforts.

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Offline george (MaryJ)

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2012, 05:13:19 AM »
So now  a new thought all 5 gallon pasteurized whole milk?
But the end,  the point of cutting the curd the gentle stir to the more how do I say, less gentle stir of the curd
how do I keep the curd from drying out
less cook time? this is where i am getting lost.
If I'm reading this correctly (which I may not), the jiggling counts as stir time.  As long as it's moving and the curds are separating from each other, it counts.   So you don't have to adjust cook time for jiggles vs. actual stirs.  :)
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2012, 10:52:20 AM »
You might also (if using h/p milk) consider using 0% fat milk and add cream to get where you need to p/f wise. I tried that a few weeks ago and got pretty good results, curd wise. Curds were pretty decent, kind of between regular h/p milk curds and raw milk. Very comparable to a non-homogenized pasteurized milk. It is hard finding a cream that is not ultra pasteurized, but I have found a dairy that supplies cream for several of the local groceries.
If I have the time, I get raw milk...my 2nd choice is non-homogenized milk, but that is only available at whole foods and the supply is iffy...last time I got that only 2 half gallon jugs were available. My 3rd choice is organic no-fat milk with added cream.  Last and final option is regular h/p milk but I won't go there again...curds were rather delicate.

That being said...I have no finished cheeses made with the no-fat milk/cream combo...so really nothing I can compare finished product-wise.

Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2012, 12:08:39 PM »
Thank you everyone for the input so far greatly appreciated :)
would have to see your recipe to tell you much

here is the basic part, as far as pressing I have no problem.
My problem, last time was no curd knit and that is what I want to avoid this time, I don't remember who or where I got this from but I am positive it came from the forum.
I should also add that this is not the same recipe I used last time (I am avoiding that one all together) :P

5 gal. Whole pasteurized milk (my new choice)
   ⅜ tsp. TA61
 ⅜ tsp. LH100
 3/16 tsp. Propionic shermanii
1 pinch and a dash = (3/16 tsp.) Dry calf rennet

   Warm milk to 90°f.
   Sprinkle TA, LH Starters and Propionic over surface of milk cover and let sit 5 to 10 minutes
   Mix in gently trying not to disturb surface of milk let ripen for 60 min.
   Prepare rennet by adding 3/16-tsp. to ¼ cup distilled/sterile water 
   Add rennet by pouring through perforated spoon over surface of milk again mix in gently
   Multiply floc. x 2.5
   Cut curds to ¼ inch and let heal for 10-15 min.
   Start to gently stir while raising temp to 100°f in 40 min.
   Then slowly raise temp of curds to 122°f in another 40 min.
   Cook at 122°f for approx. 30 min. more....curds should be "pea - rice size".
   cook until semi-dry and semi-firm but still able to knit easily
   Drain in cloth and load into mold in one piece or large chunks.
   Press under warm whey (120°) for 20 min. @ 18- lbs. (I don’t think it should be 120°f maybe 90° to 100°)
   Flip and re-press warm for 20 min. @ 30-lbs.

one thing I am not to sure about is pressing under whey at a temp of 120°f for 40 minutes
wouldn't you be cooking it more and drying out the curds even in the press, anyone have thoughts on this?

Here are a few notes for you to ponder.
Never made an Emmentaler, but I've done some Goutalers, Maasdammers,and Beauforts.
-Boofer-

Thanks Boofer, I will be reading these today ^-^

[quote If I'm reading this correctly (which I may not), the jiggling counts as stir time.  As long as it's moving and the curds are separating from each other, it counts.   So you don't have to adjust cook time for jiggles vs. actual stirs.  :)

That is kind-of where my thoughts are turning also.

Again, thanks everyone for the in-put on this I truly do not want another 5 gallon disaster :-[

H-K-J
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2012, 12:51:55 PM »
Seems like a lot of culture for 5 gallons: 3/4 tsp. not counting the shermanii.  Is this proper?

Have never made emmentaler, but will eventually get around to it. I will be making a 2 gallon make, more than likely.     :)

Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2012, 01:02:26 PM »
OK, here's what I can tell you

I have never made an Emmental style cheese, and never really intend to. But the cheese I make and learned first hand how to make in Switzerland from a who-knows-how-many'th generation cheesemaker is really very similar. It is just cooked a tad bit more, and not allowed to form eyes (eyes are considered a defect, and a cheese with eyes cannot be sold) So the techniques all apply.

People's recipes for Emmental style cheese always confuse me, because they don't usually quite mesh up with the Swiss traditions. But there are reasons for that, such as different milk, and different ways of handling the milk.

But here's what I have...

The initial warming can be as fast or slow as you want. Only here's my suggestion, why not add the starter before the  milk is all the way up to 90? On the Alp, we added the culture immediately to the fresh morning milk before warming it up, and before the cool evening milk was added and again warmed up.

As for your 60 minute ripening time, I guess that's a necessity with powdered culture. With our whey culture you don't need that.

Mix your rennet with clean water and fully dissolve it before adding to the milk, then stir extremely well. The biggest problem people run into I see is under-mixed rennet. It will still set the milk, but takes a lot longer to do so.

We also used a 2-part curd cutting system. The curd is cut into big chunks and stirred, allowing it to ripen a little more and also get toughened up before cutting.

When cutting, the 2-stage system is useful. First cut into big chunks, then stir this with a small bowl in such a way as to pull the bottom chunks up so they can be cut (with the bowl) to the same size. This was done for 10 minutes, giving the culture more time to ripen. Stir with the bowl by putting it into the vat at the far end, then pulling it toward you. This will pull up the bottom of the curd.

The second cutting is also timed, the harp is used to break up the curd but is done so very slowly. You should cut in such a way, with such a pattern, that it takes 10 minutes to reduce your curd to the 1/4" size.

Also, we brewed the curd. This is a step left off of most recipes I have seen. After cutting, the curd is stirred continuously for about 30 minutes to give the curd time to develop and strengthen before heating. There is a special tool for this that stirs the curd without cutting it, in Swiss German it's called a Brecher The stirring has to be very slow too, to not break the curd. You want to keep it from clumping.

I suppose you can skip the 60 minute ripening at the beginning and instead do the post-rennet ripening like described here. These steps make for a healthier curd.

The cutting of the curd should be at a consistent, slow speed. You never want to move too fast, this will shatter the curd which causes problems later, also variable speed winds up giving you inconsistent curd size which is a bad thing. The curd should be as uniform as possible (I can tell you the technique to do this in a large vat, but not for 5 gallons)

When stirring the curd during the cooking, use something that is not going to cut it. Don't use a whisk by any means. If you could fashion a brecher, that would be great, ohtherwise use a fairly narrow spatula (without holes in it) or a spoon (without holes in it)

You want to again stir very slowly, just fast enough to keep the curd from clumping together. If the curd clumps, then it will not sweat properly.

I would recommend something along the lines of the above technique. Letting the curd rest for 15 minutes is not a good idea, it will clump and then when you go to break it up again you will tear it up into little pieces. I was taught that under no circumstances should the curd be allowed to clump for the first cutting until the cooking is finished.

Pressing under 120 degree whey will not cook the curd, because it is meshed together and therefore cannot sweat out any more moisture.

Also, I would recommend you change your pressing schedule.

Press for 5 minute under warm whey
Press for 10 minutes under warm whey
Press for 20 minutes under warm whey
Press for 45 minutes under warm whey
Press for 1 hour under warm whey
Press for 2 hours, probably don't need whey by this point as curd should be well knit.
Press for 4 hours,
Press overnight.

This pressing schedule will give you a much more uniform, well packed, and flawless loaf. It also gives you plenty of opportunity to eliminate any surface imperfections.
This is the obsessive Swiss schedule.

Brine for maybe 6 or 8 hours. We would brine 24 hours, but that is for a 30# cheese and yours would get very salty if left for that long (like a parm)






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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2012, 01:17:42 PM »
The rule for pressing weight, as I learned it, is that you should have 8 pounds of pressing weight for every 1 pound of cheese being pressed.
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