Author Topic: Emmentaler lets try this again  (Read 11287 times)

Online H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2012, 09:42:52 PM »
That,s what I was thinkin
I don't think I want to remove the interior moisture I want a natural rind.
just not to sure how to get there.   
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Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2012, 09:49:01 PM »
I found with my Jarlsberg that as I covered it with a tupperware cake cover it would be sticky, even damp, the next morning.  I left the cover off one day, actually 6 hours per side, and it dried out to a nicely colored dry rind.  That evening I waxed it before anything else could happen. 

Online H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:15 PM »
I won't wax just trying to get a nice natural rind
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #123 on: November 29, 2012, 10:26:21 PM »
I won't wax just trying to get a nice natural rind

Hey HJK,  I think there's a difference between the rind style we are learning from Alp and a natural rind with some mold.  I'm still failing with Alp's style....mostly (I hope) because I didn't yet have a full understanding of all the aspects at the crucial time for the cheese I was trying it on.  I am learning to do a natural molded rind using a mixture of salt/wine/water brine wipes, rubbing or brushing dry molds and being better at staying on top of it.  This said,  I know I am failing to maintain humidity levels that are suggested.

My cheese smeared with smoked paprika/olive oil paste turned out to be a very tasty cheese and I managed that rind by rubbing it when mold appeared, oiling another time or two and rubbing it with salt which I regretted the next day because it made it wet for ages.  But it did dry out again and the natural molds returned.  I feel like I'm learning the natural rind balancing act but I want to be able to do Alp's style also.

So, which do you want?  The beautiful pristine rind of Alp's style or a natural molded rind?  I'll have to read your answer tomorrow because the wood stove is loaded and I'm heading up to bed.

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2012, 10:33:39 PM »
LOL :D
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2012, 03:59:31 PM »
Yes, the salt draws out some moisture to the surface. It will sweat and bead, and then you rub it around until you get a good smear. This is a good technique for later on, as it will help to harden the rind. Although a lot of Emmentaler I have had does not have a very hard rind. Just washing it down with water can otherwise result in a waxy rind.

Any molds you allow to grow on a natural rind will create off flavors. In certain cheeses, especially meso-cultured cheeses, this is desired but with the Swiss and Alpine style it is a definite no. The flavors in my opinion do not mingle well and result in a 'dirty' tasting cheeses.

What is your RH at this point? You may consider letting your cheese out in dryer air for a day or two to harden the rind.

The most crucial period is the first 10 days. I am suspecting that some of you may have over-isolated your cheeses during this time. If this is so, you won't get a strong bacteria growing on the surface which will [not]allow mold to grow.

When you have salted the cheese, rub it every other day. You can just rub it with the dry brush (or your hands even, which I do sometime for salt rubs. Gets my hand all dirty but oh well it washes off) or you can rub more salt on it. The important thing is that you keep it smeared around all the time. This helps the bacteria and slows down the mold.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:36:45 PM by Alpkäserei »
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #126 on: November 30, 2012, 06:23:02 PM »
Alp,
Quote
The most crucial period is the first 10 days. I am suspecting that some of you may have over-isolated your cheeses during this time. If this is so, you won't get a strong bacteria growing on the surface which will allow mold to grow.
I am sure you are right, this cheese is very clean( no mold at all) I thought this was a plus  :-\
It sure does smell good though :)

tiarella.
Quote
So, which do you want?  The beautiful pristine rind of Alp's style or a natural molded rind?

At this point Just hoping to pull off a decent looking cheese that taste's good ;D
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #127 on: November 30, 2012, 10:36:00 PM »
sory, that should say that will *NOT* allow mold to grow. typing error, corrected for any future viewers
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Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #128 on: December 01, 2012, 01:57:15 AM »
I think it looks beautiful.  Just needs to puff up a bit.

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #129 on: December 01, 2012, 06:39:43 AM »
sory, that should say that will *NOT* allow mold to grow. typing error, corrected for any future viewers

Alp, I really appreciate your support on this topic.  I want to become good at this type of rind.  Can you tell me what molds you'd like to have growing during this smearing around stage?  I think you've said B. linens but are there others too?  And if I worry I don't have enough happening does it make sense to create a wash with some PLA or something....or what is that stuff....Mycodore or MVA options perhaps?  I can't remember right now what those are for but I bought them recently and need to look up the info on them.


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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #130 on: December 01, 2012, 11:35:48 AM »
I want to become good at this type of rind.  Can you tell me what molds you'd like to have growing during this smearing around stage?  I think you've said B. linens but are there others too?  And if I worry I don't have enough happening does it make sense to create a wash with some PLA or something....or what is that stuff....Mycodore or MVA options perhaps?  I can't remember right now what those are for but I bought them recently and need to look up the info on them.
Here's a cheese a did using mycodore.

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2012, 12:43:16 PM »
Well, what is ideal is if you get native wild bacteria, mostly local b. linens. to grow on the rind.
You want nothing that will bloom at all -no fungus (mold), no yeast. Nothing that will give you any visual evidence of its existence other than color change.

I am not familiar with all of the ripeners, but all that is permitted by law for most Alpine Swiss cheeses (the actual Swiss ones, not imitations) is b. linens, and then generally it is preferred by most makers to add nothing.

When cultured b. linens are used for cheeses, they don't add them to the milk. Instead, they rub them onto the finished cheeses.

The basic rule of thumb is that if you see anything grow during the first few months at all -we're talking blooms or yeasts here- you wash it off. It might take some time and practice and you may have to experiment to find what wash mix works best for you. But again, the idea is to get a cheese surface that can dry off without cracking and that will not harbor mold. It may be that a few spots of blue appear here and there while the cheese dries off -just remove them before they amount to anything. But you should be able to let the cheese dry when a good washed rind is developed.

And to help understand the science here a little,

A washed rind in not a sterile environment free from any culturing agent. It is not slat treated and preserved so that it can dry out and stay plain cheese without cracking. After washing, the rind is chemically totally different than the cheese inside, and this is why it protects and preserves the insides of your cheese.
Bacteria grow on the surface of the cheese, consuming fats, proteins, and sugars and releasing certain by products (this is the basis of the 'Schmier'. This will first be a somewhat thin paste, more like dirty wash brine. Over time, it gets thicker and pastier as the bacteria dissolves more of the surface and turns it into paste. In theory, once the smear is well formed all you need to do is rub it down with dry salt, but I usually keep washing it with the brine to add flavors.  As the paste dries out, it gets like a wax that can easily rub off of the cheese when you handle it. Wetting this waxy coating will turn it back into a thick paste. This will eventually dry out too after a period of months, forming a hard shell. The hard shell should get somewhat slick when wet, but not easily transform back into paste. The rind, of course, is edible. In general, the form-side (don't know what you call this in English? We say Järbseite, or the side that is against the form) of the rind will be harder than the top or bottom, and on an old cheese may not be as pleasant to eat.

It is important that no yeast or molds grow for any period of time. These too, will cause chemical changes and release their byproducts, resulting in off flavors. The combination of a washed rind flavor and a mold infection is, in my experience, quite unpleasant and you often have to discard the rind. You can generally tell right away from looking if a rind has had mold or yeast infection that were not immediately taken care of. They will have dark spots where the mold was, or other spots or stands of off-color. (In my experience with a washed rind allowed to mold, you first get wild blues, which grow and stain the rind and are then overtaken by wild whites)
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2012, 07:02:43 PM »
Bacteria grow on the surface of the cheese, consuming fats, proteins, and sugars and releasing certain by products (this is the basis of the 'Schmier'. This will first be a somewhat thin paste, more like dirty wash brine. Over time, it gets thicker and pastier as the bacteria dissolves more of the surface and turns it into paste.
Oooh, love the schmier!

Thanks for more detail on rind development. Another cheese for your enlightenment of others.

My Beaufort has a nice schmier going.

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Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #133 on: December 04, 2012, 08:36:48 PM »
Okay H-K-J how long before this swiss should start to swell?  Anything happening to yours?

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2012, 04:56:31 PM »
Okay H-K-J how long before this swiss should start to swell?  Anything happening to yours?

I don't know how I missed this :-[
There aint no swellin, going to put it in the cave/cool-box and keep an eye on it for a few more week,s
I will probably cut this one young, I'm thinkin on startin another one soon though. :) 
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