Author Topic: Emmentaler lets try this again  (Read 11412 times)

Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2012, 06:01:50 PM »
I am getting some PR on the rind, washed lightly tonight and got rid of the few spots there were.
the rind seems very pliable, a soft rubbery feel to it, tried not to rub/wash to hard, the rind wanted to peal or should I say slurry up because of the softness.
the sides are bulging slightly yet not as much as I was expecting at this point.
The temp and RH are holding the same, I wonder if the temp is to high  :-\
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2012, 09:49:35 PM »
if you are getting mold, then you dont have a strong enough smear. was you cheese slimy and gooey on the outside when you finished the washigng, with a pronounced dirty feet smell? if not, you need to wash it some more
It is important that you use the same liquid for all the washings. we keep ours around all year. it never ge5s thrown out, just added to on occasion as we use it not only to wash our cheeses but to wipe down our wooden shelves. You want to keep the same liquid because it will become thick with the smear from the cheese, and wil incubate the natural wild linens that you are growing on the cheese
furthermore, in addition to insufficient smear this also means that your conditions are too wet. either the rind has not been allowed to dry properly or the rh is too high or both. are you still wiping it once or twice a week? this will keep the mold down.
I might have a look at the AOC xpecs for Emmentaler cheese for some more specific details.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2012, 08:38:30 AM »
The Rh is running at 92-93%  I am sure I can get that down, temp stays 72-73 deg.f, I can bring that down if need be.
It smells like dirty feet with a tang :o
I washed it on the top were the mold was and it all went away, the bottom did not have any on it so I left it alone,
My main concern was how the rind  "smear" looked, according to your description It is just about right.
I have been using the same wash the whole time and it is getting a little cloudy, so I am thinking this is OK also.
The wash is made up with 1/2 cup water, 1 cup white wine and 2 Tbls Salt.
where should I be trying to keep my RH? am I to high?

thanking you for your help

H-K-J
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2012, 09:31:47 AM »
RH is probably too high, should be 70-90%
Temperature is right

You should have more water in your wash. It is maybe a little too alcoholic even to stunt the BL. How does the cheese smell?

From the AOC conventions for Emmentaler
Quote
Im Gärkeller sind die folgenden Lagerbedingungen einzuhalten:
Temperatur: 19 - 24°C.
Luftfeuchtigkeit: 70 - 90 % relative Luftfeuchtigkeit.
Pflege: wöchentlich wenden und bei Bedarf trocken oder feucht abreiben.

That is to say,

In the Fermenting cellar the following conditions are observed:
Temperature: 19 - 24°C.
Humidity: 70-90% relative humidity.
care: weekly turning and when needed wipe dry or wet. (meaning, if it gets too wet, wipe it off. If it gets too dry as to be in danger of cracking, wet it)
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2012, 09:37:49 AM »
I'll boil some more water let it cool and add to wash,
Will drop RH this morning.

Thank you
H-K-J
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2012, 06:03:43 PM »
Trying to get the RH down, after checking tonight still needs work but at least no mold and didn't need to wash :D
I still think it is trying to swell.
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2012, 06:11:08 PM »
Looks like the start of swelling going on. On the Alpkäse, the amount of roundness I see on the top of the last picture would be enough for me to discount that wheel (because we don't want any eyes, and this looks like it already has quite a few small eyes)

From the color, I would say your smear is weak. It should have a deeper tint to it. So maybe insufficient linen growth to keep the mold away.

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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2012, 06:31:14 PM »
So what I think you may be suggesting is wash and create more of the slurry and leave it alone until the white mold starts?
 then just a light brush every once in awhile?
I'm just trying to get a handle on the washing and brushing part :-\
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2012, 06:56:18 PM »
OK, so I will try and clarify. I may say some things you know already, so just bear with me here.

First of all, a review of the concept of washing.

Our goal, contrary to what many people think, is not to create a clean cheese. Our goal is to make a really infested cheese. But we wash it in such a way as to discourage certain organisms (molds and yeast) and encourage certain others (bacteria, especially b. linens). People figured out how to do this by centuries of experimenting without understanding what was going on microbiologically.  Fortunately, we don't have to figure it out for ourselves since they did long ago.

Washing will keep the mold from growing. We are somewhat poisoning the surface with alcohol which quickly evaporates or is absorbed into the cheese and broken down, so it really doesn't amount to much as a mold killer after the first few minutes. But that brief moment does kill any small colonies that may have started.

Keeping the cheese wet is really the most important thing early on. Mold won't grow if it is too wet. Again, mold likes dampness. If your cheese is lightly damp, mold will go crazy on it. If it is sticky wet, mold can't grow (I suppose it can't adhere to the surface)

What we need to do then is to get our bacteria matured to the point where it will kill off any mold that tries to grow. We create a strong organism that eliminates its competition. As a side benefit, these bacteria also give us a nice flavor. This is where the smear comes into play. Every time we wash the cheese, we need to have this slimy cream worked up and thoroughly smeared all around. This is the environment where b. linens will thrive. We keep doing this until the cheese really starts to smell. But it should smell like dirty feet. If it smells like bread or like dirt or like urine or ammonia or any other strange thing then something is wrong. But this is unlikely to happen.

We can cultivate our own b. linens. I suspect that your cheese may not have had enough exposure to the air around it or to your skin to pick them up. DO you wear gloves when you wash it? Don't. You ant to let the b. linens that grow all over you spread onto the cheese. Do you keep the cheese hermetically sealed from the real world? don't, because your bacteria will have no way of getting to it.

If we use adjuncts as surface ripeners, then we keep it isolated and all that, but for a simple washed rind traditionally we rely on nature to supply our ripeners. Again this goes back to the goal of washing. Exposed to nature, there is a great deal of risk of contamination from undesirable organisms. We remove this risk by the way we care for the cheese. We make it an environment inhospitable to the likely offenders and very hospitable to our desired bacteria.   

This not only applies to the cheese, but also the water we use to wash it. In German, this water is called Schmierwasser. This implies that it is what we call a Schmier which would have the same meaning as when we talk of a smear ripened cheese. What we are implying is that our washing water is thoroughly colonized by b. linens or something similar. So this means that
1. The water needs to get some of the smear from the cheese in it. So don't wash your brush off before you dip it again.
2. The water can't have so much alcohol content as to kill them. Maybe your proportion of wine and water should be reversed. Twice as much water as wine seems like a reasonable ratio to me (I have no where near as much as this in mine, maybe closer to 4 times more water)
3. We don't need to keep the water 'clean'. I have never boiled or otherwise sterilized the water used for my wash. I just use hard water straight from the tap (which I know contains some bacteria, because it comes from a peat bog)

If you just can't seam to get linens started, you might just add a pinch of linen starters to your wash.

When you brush the cheese, be slow and gentle. But do it long enough to get a good smear each time. Also, flip and wash only the top and sides, never the bottoms. This will just make a mess.

You might also consider keeping your cheese on a piece of wood. Softwood. Spruce or fir if you have it. Each time you turn the cheese, wash the wood with your wash water.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2012, 07:18:28 PM »
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy ^-^ now I get it, I may like a lot of wine but the cheese  doesn't ::) less is more.
This is so cool now maybe I can get this to work,
Another cheese for you and all your help ;D

Again thank you

H-K-J
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2012, 01:19:39 AM »
Very comprehensive dialogue about washing techniques. Should be tacked to the wall.

We can cultivate our own b. linens. I suspect that your cheese may not have had enough exposure to the air around it or to your skin to pick them up. DO you wear gloves when you wash it? Don't. You ant to let the b. linens that grow all over you spread onto the cheese. Do you keep the cheese hermetically sealed from the real world? don't, because your bacteria will have no way of getting to it.

You might also consider keeping your cheese on a piece of wood. Softwood. Spruce or fir if you have it. Each time you turn the cheese, wash the wood with your wash water.
Because I may handle three or four of my cheeses during a washing/flipping/rubbing session, I use gloves which can be washed off fairly easily between cheeses. Each of the cheeses has a different rind treatment and I don't wish to cross-breed them.

In that last statement, wouldn't washing the wood when you turn the cheese cause it to be wet under the cheese and possibly cause problems?

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2012, 06:46:32 AM »
Alp,  I really appreciate the details you add each time you explain this technique.  This time I'm learning about the wine/water ratio and the possibility of a pinch of B. Linens added. I haven't successfully done this whole thing yet but next hard cheese I will.  The washed curd cheeses I tried this on dried out too much in between because you hadn't yet posted about how moist to keep them.

I wonder whether you add this threads info to the other thread or collect it all and post it as a new thread under rind treatments or as an article in the library?  This is something I really want to learn because it feels like it solves one of my questions/dilemmas.  (how on earth can I have a cave with some wild rinds and some no mold rinds). By creating different buy-terrains on different cheeses it seems possible but I wasn't sure how to do that u til you started posting on the traditional Swiss method.  Big thanks!!

I have a cheese care system......I start by dealing with any bloomies: I pat them down (cheese police pat downs) and flip them.  Then I do the washed rind wheel care that I'm slowly learning from Alp.  Next comes any natural rinds that need brushing. Then I do the truly stinky cheeses like Rebs.  Of course I wash thoroughly in between each set of care but it would feel dangerous to do the stinkies or natural rinds earlier in the routine no matter how much I wash since I think it's likely that dealing with them releases a bunch of whatever they're hosting on their rinds.

Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #87 on: November 20, 2012, 05:22:43 PM »
Today i'm seeing some white mold on the cheese, no blue, just wonderin if this is what I am looking for or should I wash it :-\
the surface is clammy not wet sort of sticky and clammy ???
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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2012, 05:39:26 PM »
Is it fuzzy mold, or is it dust?

If dust, than it is a good thing (geo) if it's fuzzy p.candidum than it has to go.

A lot of old wheels are of aged washed rind cheeses are very dusty from geo. It adds another level of flavor and isn't seen as a flaw in the tradition my experience comes from. I actually wish it would grow more on mine but it never seems to do very well (I usually just get spotty, light dusting even if I wipe it around and so forth)

You should, though, keep the cheese washed 1x per week for a while, we would do 3 to 4 months.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2012, 06:02:32 PM »
I have had white nasty looking mold on one or two of my blues, you could tell this was not a mold that belonged on the rind as it was more puffy lookin.
got rid of that with vinegar, this white looks more like dusting, guess, I will let this go a day or two, if it gets nasty lookin I will get rid of it.
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