Author Topic: blue goat v's blue cow  (Read 928 times)

Offline NimbinValley

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blue goat v's blue cow
« on: October 30, 2012, 06:56:58 PM »
I would like to start a discussion about the main make differences between a blue goat and a blue cow. 

What are the critical differences that need to be taken into account during the make? 

My goat blue is way to firm so I am thinking I need to do everything to leave in more moisture:  I don't rennet until pH ~4.5, maybe I should increase this?  ~4.8? I use a 4x floc.  Increase this?.  And I used to cut to 10mm, so I have increased this to 25mm. 

Also, I am trying to put some citrus/tangy flavour notes into the goat blue - at the moment I describe the blue as quite 'heavy'.  Any suggestions on cultures here?  I currently use Flora Danica.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.  NV.


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 07:14:53 PM »
you mean 6.5, for rennet add, right?

classic blue mix is MM + a little MD. I would do that or a O culture type plus a little MD if using Danisco's cultures.

How much/how fast do you scald the curd to form the curd casein shell it needs for openings and moisture retention?
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 07:22:18 PM »
Also which blue strain and how much are you surface salting?
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Offline NimbinValley

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 08:05:23 PM »
Yes, sorry, I rennet at 6.45. 

I don't put MD in the goat, but I could do that by ripening overnight at 14oC with MD89. 
 
Maybe I should change the goat from FD to MM and see how that goes? I am adding 2DCU/100L of STAM too, along with the FD. 
 
I make at 33oC. I don't cook or scald at all.  I find that the blueing and openness is fine.  It seems that by delaying the renneting to 6.45 I have sufficient acid development to stop curd fusion - pH is well below 6.35 at hooping.  Closer to 6.0.
 
This process works well with cow milk but I am losing too much moisture with the goat.  Cheers.  NV.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 09:45:50 PM »
Try this:

- decrease curd size to ~6 mm cube
- overnight milk ripen with MD
- Add MM with morning milk
- Rennet add at 86F
- heal, do gentle stir. When it firms up some, start the cook
- fast scald over 20 mins to ~98F -100F. Really crank up the heat.

floc at 5-6x, that should help. pH schedule seems fine

That will give you:
- more moisture overall due to longer set
- Good openings due to scald
- relatively fast make after the set
- Good moisture retention in curd due to scald, and then moisture will equalize as cheese ripens

surface salt to ~3% final. For that acid and bit of flint, keep warm so terminal pH goes to 4.5-4.6 before salt.

I don't think STAM with FD is a proteolytic enough blend here. cremoris blends with some diacetylactis should give you what you need. Not a fan of leuconostocs for blues.
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Offline NimbinValley

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 04:42:08 AM »
Thanks Pav.  I'll digest and get back to you!  My first thought is that the cut is very small.  Gorgonzola uses a 25mm cut!  Maybe this is because it is cow?  Any thoughts?  NV.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 07:05:55 AM »
The idea here is that you create even moisture throughout the entire curd mass and later the wheel by keeping curds small... it encourages a fast whey-off. And then after some of the moisture is lost, you lock in the rest of it by cooking fast and forming a casein shell around all the curd bits. This will let the curds finish draining in the mold, create enough tension for openings, and let the moisture mellow out during aging.

if you cut too big, what happens is that:
- Curds will retain quite a bit of moisture due to size
- When you get to the cook, casein shell will form, but curds will be rather wobbly... too much moisture inside, and very dry on outside
- With bigger curds, harder to achieve good openings because the curd insides will spill out and re-fuse once in the mold

That said, 6 mm is just a suggestion. If you feel like you want to go bigger, please do. Keep in mind all of these little details. It's a different way to make blue than what you usually find out there in recipes because you drain fast, cook fast, and actually want a carefully controlled gradient to take place. Coupled with a large floc, it should also slow down the drain. This is a very delicate, rather technical make, but try it on a small batch to see what I mean. When done right, it creates a sublime blue.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 11:13:04 AM »
I have been pondering some of these points as I have noticed that my cheese' seem to knit together to well in the mold,
Excellent information, will be changing my makes a little with this information :)
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Offline NimbinValley

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 11:05:26 PM »
I'm still processing but here is something to chew on in the mean time... you said you don't like leuconostoc in blues.  Why not?  My understanding was that leuconostoc was mainly a gas producer.  (It is specifically recommended for inclusion in blues by trainers in Australia. )  Does it contribute to flavour too? 

I added MD at 0.5 DCU /100L.  NV.


Offline NimbinValley

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 11:13:32 PM »
In terms of maturation my current schedule is:  dry salt at 3%.  Mature at 12oC, high humidity (not sure how hight but white mould grows well!) Pierce 10 days after going into the maturation room.  Wrap a further 10 days then transfer to 4oC room till ready - usually about 3 months.  I've been pretty happy with this.  NV.


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 05:14:07 AM »
Quote
don't like leuconostoc in blues.  Why not?
Personal preference.
Quote
leuconostoc was mainly a gas producer.
Yes, Danisco's LM is. It produces almost twice as much as MD and somewhere around 20-30% less diacetyl.
Quote
It is specifically recommended for inclusion in blues by trainers in Australia. )  Does it contribute to flavour too? 
Yes, and to body. It contributes favorably to early flavor development in the 4-8 week timeframe.

You can keep using LM, stylistic preference here. I like to bring out the lactic character of the goat milk and have found that the cream notes are less vibrant when the blue breaks down the paste. so I use a mild blue (80%), a more aromatic blue (20%), cook my curd for the openings, and up the diacetyl with MD. Seems to work OK
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Offline NimbinValley

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 06:04:30 AM »
What are you calling a milk (and a strong) blue PAV?  My cow blues are wonderful.  I just find that the goat blue flavour profile is a bit "muddy".  Not unpleasant so much as too many competing flavours I guess.  When you say you enjoy the 'lactic flavours' of the goat milk it is maybe what I am missing in mine.  I didn't have any MM today so I ran with MA19 plus MD.  Thanks.  NV.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: blue goat v's blue cow
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 06:13:33 AM »
Here's how my blue development went down. I found that a milder blue strain works better with my milk because it does not overpower the cream. Then, I missed the pungency and added a little stronger blue in (gorg strain). Then I thought it lacked character, so I started to do a little more lactic set and extended my mold wait in the make room so it acidifies fully. Then I missed the creamy notes because the acid was too much, so I added some MD and cut back a little on the warm room period. Then I had a problem with good eyes, so I changed my cook. And in the end, what I wrote earlier is what I wound up doing to achieve a good, solid blue. I don't think that LM would have made enough of a difference for me to solve the opening issue, but it doesn't hurt.

Hoping something similar will work for you. Likely will take some trials to make it work with the milk. MA should be fine, too.
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