Author Topic: Wonderful Information  (Read 3109 times)

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2012, 06:57:42 PM »

The difference between fast food and raw milk pathogen issues is that fast food caused obesity isn't contagious.  You choose to eat that food and you deal with the result.  There is no risk that your obesity is going to be caught by someone else.  Let raw milk production and use run rampant and a serious disease could very well return and affect masses of innocent people.  One decision only affects YOU the other could have huge implications for the entire country. 



Exactly what diseases are implied here? I am aware of no communicable diseases that would me likely to be started or conveyed by milk...


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Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2012, 07:19:22 PM »
Tuberculosis can be transmitted, as well as numerous food born illnesses. I am not saying there is an issue, my concern is the potential! and so yes I would like to see raw milk options but the idea of large production and distribution scares me, keeping a herd of a dozen cows clean the equipment the process is manageable, but a herd of 50, 100.... and then it being packaged and distrubted in a equaly clean and sanitized format in a timely manner? As you have lready said we have enough food issues with out adding IMO

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2012, 07:24:28 PM »
^-^

You said earlier that the gov should have no say on your ability to.............

As long as I threaten no harm, nor do harm to another's person, or property...do not misrepresent what I say.


they are called nuclear arms not my word choice, weather the supreme court rules or not, why do they have a say on that but not what you eat
The whole owning a gun for personal safety is a joke and stretch too.

Compare gun crime in our two countries. (Hint its higher in yours, yet higher gun control in mine)


umm..now you are just playing at semantics, and your argument is ludicrous.

Regarding gun crime...Canada has very few cities the size of Dallas, Detroit, NYC ....gun crime in rural america virtually doesn't exist, yet everyone owns one at least. In the larger US cities where guns are controlled only the law abiding citizens don't have guns. Criminals do....after all, gun control works oh so very well in NYC, right?



I dont disregard franklins idea, I put it in context! Your Freedoms should not superceede my safety or freedoms!


You made light of it, the implication being it was an outdated thought...I am pretty sure that the quote says nothing (nor did I) regarding my freedom superseding your right to security. If you took that implication, then I apologize.

 

You cant say no gove but ther will be gove doing...


ROFL I never suggested anarchy, nor am I an anarchist...where did that come from? I am, however, all about sticking to the constitution which limits the power of govt and guarantees me certain rights and freedoms which have been lost in recent years. I can provide specific examples of violations of the constitution in the form of legislation passed this century. I am also against big business exercising an inordinate amount of control over what legislation is passed by virtue of their lobbying power.

 

Look what deregulattion of your banking system did.


Look at what regulation did. For every example of the ills of deregulation I can provide examples of frankensteinian regulation. Look at Enron during the regulation era of Clinton's admin. You cannot legislate morality. Period. You can punish the lack of...the problem with our judicial system is often money creates ways for people to escape justice.

 

My point since the beginning was Modereation and control!

It is far from a Black and white world!

Never implied it was (black and white). However you suggest that the ability to buy raw milk would threaten others against their will. I disagree... I do not even agree that raw milk is, by definition, less healthy than pasteurized milk. After all, this is the 21st century, not the turn of the 20th century.....

Perhaps you should do some research on the subject...why is it that yogurt, with its' active bacteria is viewed so positively, yet milk is not?

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2012, 07:27:53 PM »
Tuberculosis can be transmitted, as well as numerous food born illnesses. I am not saying there is an issue, my concern is the potential! and so yes I would like to see raw milk options but the idea of large production and distribution scares me, keeping a herd of a dozen cows clean the equipment the process is manageable, but a herd of 50, 100.... and then it being packaged and distrubted in a equaly clean and sanitized format in a timely manner? As you have lready said we have enough food issues with out adding IMO

"Bovine tuberculosis has been specifically and conclusively diagnosed in humans. It is decidedly uncommon in a world in which human tuberculosis is common. The spread of bovine tuberculosis in humans is clouded by historic misinformation and imperfect science. In The Untold Story of Milk, Ron Schmid does a thorough job of debunking the huge store of medical dogma on this subject.6 During the 1800s, when tuberculosis was widespread in the US, the complexity of the disease was unknown. A few people had intestinal tuberculosis presumably from ingesting, rather than inhaling, the bacteria. Since it was known that many dairy cows were infected with tuberculosis it was presumed—and reinforced by those pushing for pasteurization—that milk was the vehicle of contagion. When it was found that cows had a distinct form of tuberculosis, the dogma expanded, generalizing that all human infections with the bovine form of the bacteria were transmitted through milk (even though the vast majority had lung infections caused by inhalation not ingestion).
In his book, Ron Schmid further details the lack of any association of human infection with bovine tuberculosis within communities that regularly consumed raw milk."

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2012, 10:22:42 PM »
Its a pretty tough call on the raw milk issue.  I'd like the option but at the same time there is a bigger picture to consider also.  Personal freedoms are important to maintain but at the same time some personal actions have far more wide reaching ramifications on others.

The difference between fast food and raw milk pathogen issues is that fast food caused obesity isn't contagious.  You choose to eat that food and you deal with the result.  There is no risk that your obesity is going to be caught by someone else.  Let raw milk production and use run rampant and a serious disease could very well return and affect masses of innocent people.  One decision only affects YOU the other could have huge implications for the entire country.  The gov't should not be in the business of protecting us from ourselves BUT it is an important player in protecting us from others actions that may negatively affect a whole lot of other people.  Its the reason we have any health codes.  Don't wash your hands at home after taking a dump have at 'er and fix that burger.  Do the same thing when several unsuspecting lives are put at risk of disease and its a whole other ball game.

Its much like the vaccine debate.  Many people freak out about vaccines and their evils and use todays benign conditions as an excuse not to get vaccined and why they are a conspiracy without considering the fact that they once did run rampant and kill millions and without continued use of vaccines they would eventually rise again and kill millions more.  It sucks but that is life.   Darn bugs.

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Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2012, 10:46:16 PM »
Tuberculosis can be transmitted, as well as numerous food born illnesses. I am not saying there is an issue, my concern is the potential! and so yes I would like to see raw milk options but the idea of large production and distribution scares me, keeping a herd of a dozen cows clean the equipment the process is manageable, but a herd of 50, 100.... and then it being packaged and distrubted in a equaly clean and sanitized format in a timely manner? As you have lready said we have enough food issues with out adding IMO

Agreed. A small dairy (or even a large one with good sanitation and testing procedures) selling on a small scale to individuals (assuming they are properly informed of any significant risks) does not bother me. I am not opposed to raw milk being available. Large scale distribution makes me nervous, but I can't say that I have an opposition to that either (concerns yes, but not opposition). I will admit, I am not as informed about this issue as I am with others. I have read some statistics which suggest to me that there are some serious considerations out there. I doubt any solution is black and white. As I mentioned before, you are balancing safety here with personal freedom. You are not only thinking about the direct consumers but also the secondary consumers as well. Perhaps the dairy industry does a spot on job and keeps everything sparkling clean. Raw milk is more likely to contain pathogens (Do you disagree with this claim?). If a less than squeaky clean restaurant slips up on its health standards and they serve a dish using improperly stored raw milk- the customer is the one who gets sick (possibly without their own knowledge of having consumed raw milk).

You quote the fast food industry a lot here as being an example of poor health standards and example of why we should not trust the health standards themselves. Tell me- would you trust those same guys with raw milk? I sure as heck would not.

Last point- I am sorry, but I have just heard too many stories about "well meaning" parents giving their kids x, y and z and the kids ending up sick or dead (usually because said well meaning parents heard about x, y and z on some health show or read it on mercola.com and did not seek a full understanding of it...). Its one thing (as Tobiasrer and Jabber seemed to me to have suggested in their words) when a decision, or the execution of a right or privledge, only effects me and only I assume the consequences. It is a totally different matter when said action effects others.

Now, before my head gets bit off. This is not a black and white issue. This is not a dichotomoy. It is not "regulate everything or regulate nothing" respectfully, that is just silly. Should fast food be banned on the grounds that it leads to obesity? Well, I know some that would say so- I personally do not think so. I do not propose to have the solution. But I do propose that lifting all regulation on the grounds of a general mistrust of the government is NOT the solution.
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2012, 11:09:31 PM »
Ok, I removed a bunch of stuff from the quote because it got confusing. If I messed up something you said, I apologize.

Total disagreement with your statement. The "unhealthy aspect" of raw milk is relatively easy to monitor and control.

I need to follow up on this one.

If raw milk is such a public health hazard then we would see the effects as it has become more accepted during the last decade with a correspondingly huge increase in illness and deaths...instead what we DO see is an epidemic of obesity due to fast foods and processed foods during the last decade.

Hmmmm.... dont have any numbers in front of me.... but as I recall last time I looked into it.... raw milk was banned because of bad statistics. Can't say too much more as I do not have data in front of me- do you have any you would like to share?

How many people die because of auto collisions and yet vehicles are not being banned.....public safety is an excuse.

Really?

The dairy I buy raw milk at has been in business ever since the sale became legalized (couple/3 years ago) and yet they are not getting their pants sued off because someone got sick...that is some public health hazard eh? More like the public health hazard has been blown out of proportion to a point of hysteria...naa...that doesn't happen in the good ole USA.
After all, what our politicians and big business tell us has to be true..I read that on the internet and so it has to be true!

Oh, well clearly if you have been buying raw milk at this one single farm for 3 years and nothing has happened to you- clearly raw milk is safe! Well, that solves that one- call the President!

"WASHINGTON, DC: Data gleaned from U.S. government websites and government-sanctioned reports on foodborne illnesses show that the risk of contracting foodborne illness by consuming raw milk is much smaller than the risk of becoming ill from other foods, according to research by Dr. Ted Beals, MD, appearing in the Summer, 2011 issue of Wise Traditions, the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation."


Really? The Weston A. Price Foundation? No disrespect intended, but I do not consider them any kind of authority. They are not scientists they are a political think tank (which happens to have as a board people with MDs, NDs and Ph.D.s and a best selling author who is popular right now because she pulled the "common sense" card). Of course their published material is pro-deregulating raw milk- that is basically their main campaign!

Any organization who's co-founders publish "authoritative" articles on the evils of soy in a magazine that runs news on UFOs and Big Foot and then cite those articles as scientific sources in their books an web articles, lose my scientific respect. Call me snooty but I like some kind of peer review- and I would prefer it to come from experts, not Art Bell fans!

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&category_id=68&product_id=602&Itemid=44
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&category_id=115&product_id=940&Itemid=44

and an example of UFO whoo-haa:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&category_id=137&product_id=1330&Itemid=44

I have to think a little more about your other arguments and post back in a little bit.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:43:06 PM by mightyMouse.tar.gz »
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2012, 11:28:06 PM »
Look at what regulation did. For every example of the ills of deregulation I can provide examples of frankensteinian regulation. Look at Enron during the regulation era of Clinton's admin. You cannot legislate morality. Period. You can punish the lack of...the problem with our judicial system is often money creates ways for people to escape justice.
Uhhhh.... You are supporting an argument for DE-regulation with an isolated incident in which a corporations' board VIOLATED the law and screwed a bunch of people over?  Do you mean to suggest that had the system been deregulated everything would have been ok? IE Enron's executives would have chosen NOT to take the actions they did?

Crap! We better legalize murder before someone gets killed!

Never implied it was (black and white). However you suggest that the ability to buy raw milk would threaten others against their will. I disagree... I do not even agree that raw milk is, by definition, less healthy than pasteurized milk. After all, this is the 21st century, not the turn of the 20th century....

What does the century have to do with it? Yeah ok, if someone gets sick because some milk has an infection in it sure, medicine today is more likely to save their life. I agree with that. Do you mean to suggest that our sanitation standards have improved? Well that seems plausible to me, and likely will help, but I think the greater concern with raw milk is with the potential for pathogens in the milk a priori. Clean pipes can only help you so much when your cow starts off sick.

Perhaps you should do some research on the subject...why is it that yogurt, with its' active bacteria is viewed so positively, yet milk is not?
Because that "active bacteria" is not pathogenic- in fact it is beneficial to us. By the way, last time I checked that yogurt you reference is PASTURIZED prior to innoculation!
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2012, 11:46:20 PM »
Tuberculosis can be transmitted, as well as numerous food born illnesses. I am not saying there is an issue, my concern is the potential! and so yes I would like to see raw milk options but the idea of large production and distribution scares me, keeping a herd of a dozen cows clean the equipment the process is manageable, but a herd of 50, 100.... and then it being packaged and distrubted in a equaly clean and sanitized format in a timely manner? As you have lready said we have enough food issues with out adding IMO

I can respect those concerns- my big concern is not so much what happens at the Dairy itself, its what happens once the milk leaves the Dairy. The handling at the Dairy is concerning enough.
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline Threelittlepiggiescheese

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 07:41:23 AM »
wow, I didn't expect this, next time ill keep my mouth shut and not post helpful information for fear of people trying to one up each other over the sharing of information


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Offline Boofer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 08:12:43 AM »
No, don't be afraid to post, please. Thank you for the original post.

I thought for a minute there we were going to have to turn the hoses on the group. :o

Now, back to cheese.

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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 09:03:48 AM »
Thank you Boofer ::)
act as if it were impossible to fail.

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 09:27:23 AM »

Uhhhh.... You are supporting an argument for DE-regulation with an isolated incident in which a corporations' board VIOLATED the law and screwed a bunch of people over?  Do you mean to suggest that had the system been deregulated everything would have been ok? IE Enron's executives would have chosen NOT to take the actions they did?

Crap! We better legalize murder before someone gets killed!


Now you are being obtuse. I am not supporting deregulation, unless allowing a product to be sold which undergoes the same certification and inspection process as other dairy products is deregulation. My illustration was simple: Regulation does not guarantee anything...in fact I said that you "cannot legislate morality". Putting it simply, no matter what the laws people will find ways to break them regardless of the consequences if they think they can get away with it. Can you understand that?
To equate that with legalizing murder is asinine and does nothing to help your argument. Might as well compare nukes with handguns.....lol


What does the century have to do with it? Yeah ok, if someone gets sick because some milk has an infection in it sure, medicine today is more likely to save their life. I agree with that. Do you mean to suggest that our sanitation standards have improved? Well that seems plausible to me, and likely will help, but I think the greater concern with raw milk is with the potential for pathogens in the milk a priori. Clean pipes can only help you so much when your cow starts off sick.


I was putting the time when pasteurization became the law of the land (and was needed) in context. It has nothing to do with curing people who are sick, but rather that technology and dairy science have progresses significantly during the last 100 years and to maintain the same frame of mind as though farmers do not have access to to those resources is facile at best.

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 09:40:30 AM »
I am pretty much done arguing the point...this will be my last post.

BTW regarding the link etc...I apologize for not researching that quote better. The wife was ready to go out to eat at our favorite mexican restaurant (Desperados) so I did a quick google and cut and paste.  Perhaps a better link would be http://www.realmilk.com/.

My main point being that the main opponent to the raw milk movement has been the Dairy Council, and their reasons are highly suspect. That regulation guarantees nothing, that USDA inspections (used in an example) are a joke. A few more points made, but those were the mains ones.

My personal anecdote related to the local dairy selling raw milk was not meant to imply (as it was so sarcastically portrayed) that all dairies are safe (that's just dumb), but rather that they can be safe, and apparently most, if not all, are producing safe milk or they would be being sued into oblivion....and rest assured, the Dairy Council would make sure that it would be highly publicized.

I am done...As Boofer put it,  "Now, back to cheese."  I am making Forme d'Ambert today! Will post (probably tomorrow) how the make went.

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 10:01:25 AM »
wow, I didn't expect this, next time ill keep my mouth shut and not post helpful information for fear of people trying to one up each other over the sharing of information

[edit/repost] I had originally posted a reply to this comment as well as a comment directed to bbracken677 but decided that it made more sense to repost them as one general comment.

ThreeLittlePigs et all,
Speaking from my own perspective, this is not about one upping anyone. We are just having a friendly debate. Everyone who has participated has make some good points. Its all in respect (IMO). It has gotten a tad heated at times but not flat out disrespectful (I don't think so at least). (Originally directed to bbraken667, but to all involved) If I have been a little aggresive at times (which sometimes I do unintentionally) then I do apologize. I do enjoy debating so long as it remains impersonal and I kind of get into it. I think this is a very interesting topic and very relevant to all of us.

Personally, I am of the mindset that the purpose of debate is not to advance one's ego (at least in theory- sometimes the practice works out a little differently than that) but rather debate is an opportunity for discovery/learning or refinement of ones understanding and reflection on one's own beliefs. I think it has been an interesting topic and I now have some new things to read up on.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:43:28 AM by mightyMouse.tar.gz »
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }