Author Topic: Wonderful Information  (Read 2333 times)

Offline Threelittlepiggiescheese

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Wonderful Information
« on: November 14, 2012, 08:07:39 AM »
As I was reading about all these people in the states that want to succeed I tripped over to the white house petition site and found this tidbit of great info about raw milk.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/food-safety-and-raw-milk


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Offline Boofer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 09:27:24 AM »
Thank you for that. The time to legalize the sale and distribution of raw milk is NOW. If not, then the sale of raw spinach, raw tomatoes, and other raw foods that have been in the news over the past years because of e-coli or salmonella infection should also be outlawed.

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Offline Gobae

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 09:43:57 AM »
Yes, that's very interesting. I never knew that the FDA only had regulations on INTERstate raw milk.  I guess if these people want raw milk they need to petition their State legislatures.

Their stats are interesting too, but somewhat unhelpful if you want to know what your real risk is.  They say that "Since 1987, there have been 143 reported outbreaks of illness". But in order to make the statistic useful you need to know how many total people drank raw milk during those 25 years. Do those 143 people represent 100% illness rate? .000001%? Less? There is a .000229% chance of being killed in a car accident every year is raw milk more or less dangerous?

Anyway, in NY there are several legal raw milk vendors who are inspected regularly for contaminants so purchasing raw milk is a non-issue here.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 10:45:34 AM »
I agree and disagree, the issue is you can not regulate stupid or greed effectively. The problem is when you alow something then that means you are approving it. So when some one abuses the system doesnt maintain the standards and makes people sick how is the general public going to protect themselves?
They believe that if they were able to buy it on the store shelf etc that its safe its clean its.... I am all for direct sales, where I get to go see where I am buying from and decide yeah I think you are selling a quality product, my concern comes with volume, and accountability. If you want raw milk that means raw, Spinch can be washed, Beef and chicken properly cooked, etc but other then maintaing the source there is no control over quality of the finished product with raw milk.
Stats on the sales volume of raw milk, vs illness would deffinatley make things make more sense. What is teh danger level, and where are we willing to put money to keep people safe? Higher dozens more of state inspectors to REGULARLY be able to inspect facilities and do testing? Pay wages pensions benifits etc so you can have the choice to buy a product that I as a tax pay may not want? Is your right to be able to maybe buy it on teh shelf beside the one I want worth all tax payers footing the bill?

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 11:20:07 AM »
Quote
only had regulations on INTERstate raw milk.
Yes, technically, per the CFRs. But it's a bit more complex than that due to case law. FDA governs not only final product, but also any inputs into final product and packaging. Could be argued that packaging coming from another state or grain or hay is an ingredient. Or the animal.

Another issue is the FDAs mandate to protect public safety. Because Congress has ceded this authority to the FDA, it is conceivable that this argument would prevail if it wanted to make a seizure. It's a bit of a mess overall, no clear lines, and internal guidance is very murky on what constitutes inter-agency jurisdiction here.
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 12:30:44 PM »
I am one of those nasty people who believe in freedom, and not Big Brother dictating to me what I should/can do/buy in the interests of public safety.

How safe is fast food compared to raw milk? We all know the obesity issues related to fast food, so by all means, let's remove fast food in the interest of "public safety" and totally remove the decision process (and accountability) from the average citizen...after all...Average Joe is incapable of making decisions for himself, so we should abdicate that right to those who know better.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 01:28:17 PM »
LOL Bbracken,
I agree and disagree! The obesity issue caused by fast food is an exellent example that the average Joe can not think and decide for himself!
The other issue is you want the right to eat/drink etc what you want, so it is your beliefe we should do a way with food inspection all together? Why close a restraunt due to health violations I have the Right to eat what I want?? Regardless of the practices going on?
Look at the debate on child hood imunization or, breast feeding, religion, cults etc! none of those would be a debate if average Joe could think for himself!
Then you add greed to the mix, what makes me money the fastest? where can I cut a corner and get more profit! Maybe thats not your mind set but you dont know any one who would? And deffinatley no one running a dairy would do something like that so... there is no issue no need for oversight or regulation?

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 02:38:47 PM »
I would like to add, I do not mean to be insulting or argumentative, I just don't think its a simple yes no decision.
I want the right to buy Raw milk, but taking away regulations is a pretty broad statement, so is asking for legalized raw milk sales.  I am willing to bet many of you are WAY more informed then I am, and that is the issue, I am not informed, and how do I get that information, where does the time etc come I rely on rules etc to help me when getting my car fixed, buying a cra seat for my children as well as buying my groceries, I also recognize that its not a perfect system and mistakes are made.
However I am againt blanket solutions that go either way! Both 100% free as well as 100% controlled. In Canada the sale of Raw milk is 100% illiegal, some people try and call it a beauty product or other loop holes, but simply put it is illegal. I happen to disagree with this rule. Not only because it impedes on my choice, but as much so that it interfeers with my ability to choose, It is my beliefe that people as a whole in a group are no different then cattle! They will get in line cuz that what the first person did, eat what is given and..... But I think that the safety of the group is as important as the safety and choice of the individual!

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 03:04:00 PM »
I could argue how meat inspections are ACTUALLY conducted (as opposed to what people think), I could argue that health inspections are ineffective in preventing food poisoning and I could also argue that any business that does not observe common sense cleanliness will not be in business for long.

Pasteurization was needed a century ago, but today's knowledge, availability of stainless equipment, and grading of milk amongst many factors, makes raw milk today much safer than that which was drunk by your great grandparents.

If you had read any of the many books about the modern meat, grain, fast food (just read fast food nation), processed food industries you would not be so trusting when it comes to putting your safety in the hands of a govt. Past and current policies, as well as the gov't's influence on the direction of these industries has had a direct affect on our country's obesity.

Inspections, as currently done, will not, cannot, prevent you from eating beef from a cow infected with mad cow's disease. If you buy a tube of ground beef you are likely eating beef from thousands of cows and all it takes is one....consider how often thousands of tons of beef are recalled periodically. Do you think it was caught by a federal inspector?  ha

IMHO if the govt had stayed out of it all we would be much better off now.

I have a problem when it comes to other's telling me how I should lead my life...something called freedom. Ben Franklin wrote: "Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither".

Here in Texas when the raw milk issue came up (to legalize) guess who was against it....  The big Dairy producers...We won a small victory by making it legal to buy directly from a farm, but heaven forbid that raw milk be allowed to compete with the lesser quality milk that could not be sold raw, but can be once pasteurized (can you say, mastitis?). 

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 03:09:24 PM »
LOL Bbracken,
I agree and disagree! The obesity issue caused by fast food is an exellent example that the average Joe can not think and decide for himself!

I see...so you are in favor of dictating what McDonald's menu should be?

You must also be in favor of removing choice from Average Joe...if so then he shouldn't be allowed to buy alcohol, tobacco, soft drinks, processed foods, fast food, cars, weapons, etc etc etc...and you might as well provide his daily food, the roof over his head, and then train him for the job you think he is capable of performing.


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Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 03:34:26 PM »
I agree and disagree, the issue is you can not regulate stupid or greed effectively.
Few truer statements have been uttered.
The problem is when you alow something then that means you are approving it.
They believe that if they were able to buy it on the store shelf etc that its safe its clean its.... I am all for direct sales, where I get to go see where I am buying from and decide yeah I think you are selling a quality product, my concern comes with volume, and accountability.

In a literal sense, this is of course not true, but I think your point is more about the perception. At least here in the US, we tend to trust the products which are on the store shelves because we trust the oversight which governs their placement (whether that oversight is government or eventually market). Given that the government oversees food regulation, if raw milk is on the shelf consumers are probably more likely to assume it has passed appropriate safety inspections, etc...
 
So when some one abuses the system doesnt maintain the standards and makes people sick how is the general public going to protect themselves?
I would argue that appropriate penalties should be in place. Heck, with as sue happy our culture is- why not? I would suspect that some labeling requirements would need to be in place.

If you want raw milk that means raw, Spinch can be washed, Beef and chicken properly cooked, etc but other then maintaing the source there is no control over quality of the finished product with raw milk.
A very valid distinction. Afterall, I wash my spinach- don't know about others...

Stats on the sales volume of raw milk, vs illness would deffinatley make things make more sense. What is teh danger level, and where are we willing to put money to keep people safe? Higher dozens more of state inspectors to REGULARLY be able to inspect facilities and do testing? Pay wages pensions benifits etc so you can have the choice to buy a product that I as a tax pay may not want? Is your right to be able to maybe buy it on teh shelf beside the one I want worth all tax payers footing the bill?
Well.... I am not sure I agree that something should be banned because it costs to much to make sure it is allowed correctly. When something is banned, the government is restricting personal freedom (in this case the freedom to buy raw milk). I think that is a decision which has deep implications with our culture where freedom is basically sacred. If the government if going to restrict freedom, there better be a dang good reason for it like public safety. If that is the case, the question then becomes "Does raw milk pose a significant enough danger to public safety to warrant it's being banned." I am not really convinced either way personally but I am not familiar enough with the issue.
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Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 03:42:49 PM »
I am one of those nasty people who believe in freedom, and not Big Brother dictating to me what I should/can do/buy in the interests of public safety.
I would agree with you until kids start dying because some idiot school administrator makes a stupid decision regarding the lunch program on the grounds that it was "allowed". I do think the government should stay out of my personal business, but it also has a very high level view of things and as such I believe has a responsibility to define "reasonable" parameters of operation (IE laws, regulations, naming conventions, etc...) which ensure both "fair" distribution of resources and protect public safety.

How safe is fast food compared to raw milk? We all know the obesity issues related to fast food, so by all means, let's remove fast food in the interest of "public safety" and totally remove the decision process (and accountability) from the average citizen...after all...Average Joe is incapable of making decisions for himself, so we should abdicate that right to those who know better.
Eh.... I think there is a pretty big difference here. You can control a lot the safety associated with fast food. The "Unhealthy" aspect of fast food is more in the choice to eat it than it is in the potential for pathogens (theoretically). With raw milk, it is harder to control those things in a reasonable way.
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 03:46:07 PM »
With regards to raw milk, I think the 2 biggest problems are:

1) Education/knowledge.  People do not know it is available. People do not know what the benefits/risks are (but are full of misperceptions)

2) Big Dairy producers are against it and use their political power (lobbying, donations) to influence legislation against raw milk availability. This is huge and quite suspicious.

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 03:46:24 PM »

I see...so you are in favor of dictating what McDonald's menu should be?

You must also be in favor of removing choice from Average Joe...if so then he shouldn't be allowed to buy alcohol, tobacco, soft drinks, processed foods, fast food, cars, weapons, etc etc etc...and you might as well provide his daily food, the roof over his head, and then train him for the job you think he is capable of performing.

That's kind of a big leap.....
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try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }

Offline mightyMouse.tar.gz

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »
With regards to raw milk, I think the 2 biggest problems are:

1) Education/knowledge.  People do not know it is available. People do not know what the benefits/risks are (but are full of misperceptions)
I suspect you are correct here!

2) Big Dairy producers are against it and use their political power (lobbying, donations) to influence legislation against raw milk availability. This is huge and quite suspicious.
Why? I would tend to think they would be more in favor of it? What would the problem be if it was allowed? They would save money on processing costs because they could release product that does not require homogenization and pasteurization. I am not intimately familiar with the industry but I suspect "little guys" would assume any particular significant advantage because of it. Big dairy will still be big dairy and will still have all of its advertising and buying power. So whats the problem from their end?
// bad cheese exception handling
try { Cheese myCheese = new Gouda(); } catch (NastyCheeseException e) { throw new CultureContaminationException(); }