Author Topic: Wonderful Information  (Read 2929 times)

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 03:52:53 PM »
 ^-^
Yes I would have regulations control alot of those things!
Ben Franklin was drinking my granparents milk and as you pointed out things have changed since his time.

Is the food industry run perfectly no, is gun control perfect no, is the fast food industry run perfect no.

But leaving the decision to the masses is first of all socialism, but STUPID and dangerous! I dont know why its impossible to have a government with common sense, but its even more impossible for the masses to have common sense.
Because this is a Cheese forum I will stay focused on the milk and not my political views beyond that, but the end result is the abscence of rules does not make things 'safer', You have a succesful farm but operat with out rules? you raised children? without rules? are there issues Now with dairy products? Yes, Again i am in Canada which has a very different approach on Dairy then the US, But the end result is I believe lives are saved because of the rules, We both get to hide behind the fact that they will always be there so neither you nor I can be proven wrong but at what point would you even take my side how many lives are worth your freedom and who would you be suing if your choice was not the best?
I agree with farm direct sales I beleive it gives me the opportunity to be informed, But when I oopen the cooler at the grocery store and reach in to grab a gallon of milk I can ONLY assume all the milk is produced and treated the same, that there has been some measure (perfect or not) of accountability and quality assurance.


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Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 04:03:46 PM »

How safe is fast food compared to raw milk? We all know the obesity issues related to fast food, so by all means, let's remove fast food in the interest of "public safety" and totally remove the decision process (and accountability) from the average citizen...after all...Average Joe is incapable of making decisions for himself, so we should abdicate that right to those who know better.
Eh.... I think there is a pretty big difference here. You can control a lot the safety associated with fast food. The "Unhealthy" aspect of fast food is more in the choice to eat it than it is in the potential for pathogens (theoretically). With raw milk, it is harder to control those things in a reasonable way.

Total disagreement with your statement. The "unhealthy aspect" of raw milk is relatively easy to monitor and control.

If raw milk is such a public health hazard then we would see the effects as it has become more accepted during the last decade with a correspondingly huge increase in illness and deaths...instead what we DO see is an epidemic of obesity due to fast foods and processed foods during the last decade.

How many people die because of auto collisions and yet vehicles are not being banned.....public safety is an excuse.

The dairy I buy raw milk at has been in business ever since the sale became legalized (couple/3 years ago) and yet they are not getting their pants sued off because someone got sick...that is some public health hazard eh? More like the public health hazard has been blown out of proportion to a point of hysteria...naa...that doesn't happen in the good ole USA.
After all, what our politicians and big business tell us has to be true..I read that on the internet and so it has to be true!

"WASHINGTON, DC: Data gleaned from U.S. government websites and government-sanctioned reports on foodborne illnesses show that the risk of contracting foodborne illness by consuming raw milk is much smaller than the risk of becoming ill from other foods, according to research by Dr. Ted Beals, MD, appearing in the Summer, 2011 issue of Wise Traditions, the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation."

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 04:07:03 PM »
Mighty mouse! Good job!
While I am sure we differ on a few details I agree strongly with you!

We dont live in the little isolated world of ben franklin or..... Your example of school lunches ect is exaclty where my fears cumulate to! Buy a farm raise your family and stay isolated there doing what you want, have the freedom you want in that space, the second you step out into the world and impact my life my safety I think I have a right to speak up!
I can not Speak for Franklin, but his qoute "Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither" speaks to teh individual, not the group. Why does your Freedom get to influence my freedom and safety?
Criminals have more rights then honest law abiding citizens because of the attitude that your FREEDOM is more important then my security!

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 04:08:33 PM »

Why? I would tend to think they would be more in favor of it? What would the problem be if it was allowed? They would save money on processing costs because they could release product that does not require homogenization and pasteurization. I am not intimately familiar with the industry but I suspect "little guys" would assume any particular significant advantage because of it. Big dairy will still be big dairy and will still have all of its advertising and buying power. So whats the problem from their end?


http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/industry-ads-attack-raw-milk.htm

"Industry Ads Attack Raw Milk,
But Texas Bill Going Strong
By Judith McGeary, Esq. | February 5, 2011
The Big Dairy opposition to raw milk took a new turn recently when an industry group began running radio ads, across the state of Texas, warning the public away from raw milk. Not only did the ads include false and misleading information, but the campaign was being funded with farmers’ dollars, including fees levied on raw milk farmers."

Consider that if you had cows that had mastitis and you sold raw milk....your milk would be coming back as fast as it went out. However, if you pasteurize it, you can sell it and no one's the wiser.

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »
Mighty mouse! Good job!
While I am sure we differ on a few details I agree strongly with you!

We dont live in the little isolated world of ben franklin or..... Your example of school lunches ect is exaclty where my fears cumulate to! Buy a farm raise your family and stay isolated there doing what you want, have the freedom you want in that space, the second you step out into the world and impact my life my safety I think I have a right to speak up!
I can not Speak for Franklin, but his qoute "Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither" speaks to teh individual, not the group. Why does your Freedom get to influence my freedom and safety?
Criminals have more rights then honest law abiding citizens because of the attitude that your FREEDOM is more important then my security!

So, by definition, your world is safe from foodborne illness? I think not. Your children are safe from school lunches? I think not. Does hysteria and misinformation rule the day? I think so.

Oh...by your thinking it must be extremely safe to live in NYC because of their gun control laws...I think not.


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Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2012, 04:15:03 PM »
If raw milk is such a public health hazard then we would see the effects as it has become more accepted during the last decade with a correspondingly huge increase in illness and deaths...instead what we DO see is an epidemic of obesity due to fast foods and processed foods during the last decade.

The epidemic of obesity is a control issue and a matter of personal choice and freedom!
There are regulations in place on the dairy industry that could be loosened with safety still considered I am not against Raw milk, however they are in place and as such no there are NO MASS illness and deaths, but just throughing the doors of freedom open will not maintain that.
As migghty mouse noted how many kids and people would need to die before it matters? You get to buy your raw milk with out you or the producer being a criminal! where would you like to see things? You have what you want and yet it is not enough what will be? I want what you have I think that gives choice and safety. The market can dictate howmany farmer take up raw milk and who deoesnt.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2012, 04:17:27 PM »
LOL texans and there guns!!
I should have the right to own build manufacture and sell nuclear weapons?
Do not interfeer with my freedoms!
I want it so i should have it!
What a pleasant world! Please run for president!

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:15 PM »
You try to distinguish a difference between an actual and statistically proven health hazard (fast food) and a perceived one (raw milk...one which is fostered by big business) and then try to equate a right guaranteed by our constitution with nuclear weapons?  Really?   

I have no words.... 

btw...it's their, not there...there is a place.

Also...while you are making a broad sweeping generalization...I just moved to Texas a year ago. I am originally from California.

And...govt regulation does not assure safety, far from it. What has been the increase in size of govt, the number of regulations and laws over the last 50 years? 50 years ago people often didn't even lock their doors at night. They didn't suffer from obesity at anything close to what we see today. They didn't suffer hysterical attacks of fear regarding the safety of their food. Need I go on?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 04:39:41 PM by bbracken677 »

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2012, 04:43:55 PM »

As migghty mouse noted how many kids and people would need to die before it matters? You get to buy your raw milk with out you or the producer being a criminal! where would you like to see things? You have what you want and yet it is not enough what will be? I want what you have I think that gives choice and safety. The market can dictate howmany farmer take up raw milk and who deoesnt.

Is the assumption here that raw milk would not be subject to the same inspection/certification processes other dairy products are?

Your remark regarding "The market can dictate howmany farmer take up raw milk and who deoesnt." is wrong due to the fact that the market isn't being allowed to decide that due to legislation.

OH...and just to make sure we are all clear: I do not support govt intervention regarding fast food...they are the reason it is what it is. Read a little..educate yourself.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2012, 04:48:23 PM »
bbracken Yes you are right on both my spelling,
but more importnatly my generalization of texans it is sweeping.
I would ask why you dis agree with owning nuclear weapons but not automatic weapons, and a generalization that an industry that is controlled that has no majour health risks should be significantly un regulated would continue to offer the same safety standards! is about the same generalization, but more so to say that My individual freedoms on everything are more important then group security I think is even more sweeping, (I dont) do you know where and in what context Franklin even made that statement? I have a feeling it wasnt Raw milk or Automatic weapons.


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Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »

Is the assumption here that raw milk would not be subject to the same inspection/certification processes other dairy products are?


Okay but correct me here you have freedoms! inspections and there for rules impose on those. I am NOT against Raw milk and never thought you were for regulating fast food. As for educating-  how I am un educated for being moderate in the middle liking some of both sides freedom and control security and choice. While an extrem veiw that disregards any good that has come from regulations (inspections and certifications) is more educated on the true meaning and issues and facts.

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 05:23:04 PM »
bbracken Yes you are right on both my spelling,
but more importnatly my generalization of texans it is sweeping.
Funny...I saw more weapons being carried in Tennessee than in Texas (only weapons being carried here, that I have seen, are by police and private security) So unless you live here, you are making sweeping generalized statements based on perception... specially when you were referring to me, a Californian. 

I would ask why you dis agree with owning nuclear weapons but not automatic weapons, and a generalization that an industry that is controlled that has no majour health risks should be significantly un regulated would continue to offer the same safety standards! is about the same generalization, but more so to say that My individual freedoms on everything are more important then group security I think is even more sweeping, (I dont) do you know where and in what context Franklin even made that statement? I have a feeling it wasnt Raw milk or Automatic weapons.

This is the first time automatic weapons have been mentioned...reaching a bit? I will field it anyway...one could make a case regarding personal defense with a hand held weapon...kinda hard to make the same argument regarding nukes.  Also...the constitution guarantees the right to own and bear arms...somehow I don't think the Supreme Court would rule that nukes count as "arms".

The rest of the statement I am not sure I understand, but I will give it a shot anyway....No where did I even imply that dairy shouldn't be regulated. I would expect that the same regulations that apply today (ie: safe to consume) would continue to apply. The dairy farmer selling raw milk would be responsible for the cleanliness of his operation and the health of his cows and would also be responsible should "bad milk" be sold and all that implies.

With regards to the Franklin quote....I do not know the exact context of the statement (I am old, but not that old...I wasn't there), however in today's world it doesn't take much intelligence to see that we are losing liberties and freedoms once considered sacred by our forefathers while at the same time our gov't exerts more and more control over it's citizens and those same citizens become ever more dependent on govt.. It also doesn't take much imagination to see how legislation such as the Patriot Act can be abused to a degree only seen in totalitarian countries.

To disregard such a philosophy is to do so at one's own risk...to disregard history is to be doomed to repeating the errors of the past. Ben Franklin was a highly intelligent fellow who contributed much to the founding of our country. Our forefathers put much thought into the constitution and in particular to limiting the powers of the govt. We see this changing...not good.

Just because he wasn't referring to "automatic weapons" doesn't demean the basic meaning of the quote.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 05:39:28 PM »
 ^-^

You said earlier that the gov should have no say on your ability to.............
they are called nuclear arms not my word choice, weather the supreme court rules or not, why do they have a say on that but not what you eat
The whole owning a gun for personal safety is a joke and stretch too.

Compare gun crime in our two countries. (Hint its higher in yours, yet higher gun control in mine)

I dont disregard franklins idea, I put it in context! Your Freedoms should not superceede my safety or freedoms!

You cant say no gove but ther will be gove doing...

Look what deregulattion of your banking system did.

My point since the beginning was Modereation and control!

It is far from a Black and white world!

Offline Jabber

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 06:42:51 PM »
Its a pretty tough call on the raw milk issue.  I'd like the option but at the same time there is a bigger picture to consider also.  Personal freedoms are important to maintain but at the same time some personal actions have far more wide reaching ramifications on others.

The difference between fast food and raw milk pathogen issues is that fast food caused obesity isn't contagious.  You choose to eat that food and you deal with the result.  There is no risk that your obesity is going to be caught by someone else.  Let raw milk production and use run rampant and a serious disease could very well return and affect masses of innocent people.  One decision only affects YOU the other could have huge implications for the entire country.  The gov't should not be in the business of protecting us from ourselves BUT it is an important player in protecting us from others actions that may negatively affect a whole lot of other people.  Its the reason we have any health codes.  Don't wash your hands at home after taking a dump have at 'er and fix that burger.  Do the same thing when several unsuspecting lives are put at risk of disease and its a whole other ball game.

Its much like the vaccine debate.  Many people freak out about vaccines and their evils and use todays benign conditions as an excuse not to get vaccined and why they are a conspiracy without considering the fact that they once did run rampant and kill millions and without continued use of vaccines they would eventually rise again and kill millions more.  It sucks but that is life.   Darn bugs.

Offline Tobiasrer

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Re: Wonderful Information
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 06:54:53 PM »
Great point Jabber.

bbracken677, If i have come across as attacking you personally I am sorry. I do agree with certain points you have, and would like to see freedoms in the ability to purchase and distribute raw milk, but I want rules and oversight.
What does the laws in texas allow in regards to raw milk now, how would you like them changed?