Author Topic: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land  (Read 1775 times)

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« on: November 16, 2012, 07:36:48 AM »
I set out yesterday to make Desert Sunset Pave  (can't do accent over that last "e") from Mary Karlin's book but following her recipe left me with curds too firm to drain in the molds without weight as she instructs in her recipe so I jumped ship and pressed the curds into 2 molds under moderate pressure.

 This cheese is a lot firmer than I expected  and now I'm left with wondering what next.  I have perused Yoav/iratherfly's Reblochon recipe to see what recommendations he gives since that cheese is similar in it's initial make and does go into a press.  Also checked out similar recipes in Gianclis Caldwell's book to see what other options might be.  The recipes vary widely on pressing temp recommendations, pressing times, brining times, etc.  Yikes!  What that does give me I guess is a bit of understanding that it'll likely be cheese no matter what I do. 

One wheel is in brine now, the other has been dry salted.  Mary Karlin's recipe calls for 6 hours of brining.  The Reb recipe calls for 45 minutes per side although my wheels are bigger since I don't have Reb molds.  Gianaclis' book calls for 30 minutes per 1.5 lb of cheese.  My wheels are 1 lb 9.9 oz and 2 lb 15.9n oz.  Such a difference in brining suggestions.  The range is from about 45 minutes to 6 hours  for my small cheese!  Suggestions are appreciated. 

I'm heading out to milk and do barn chores so nothings happening to the cheeses in the next 2 hours ......but then I need to decide when to take the bigger wheel out of the brine and between drying at room temp, putting immediately in 62 degrees or drying for 4 days at 65.  In Yoav's Reb recipe it doesn't say how long to dry (a few days in the lead in notes) in the yeasting conditions just to turn daily so it must be more than a day. 

I know where the make went wrong....the temp dropped during the ripening phase and it took almost a half hour to bring it back up.....


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 08:49:17 AM »
What is the form factor of the cheese? What size? And saturated brine? That determines the salt time.

Quote
I know where the make went wrong....the temp dropped during the ripening phase and it took almost a half hour to bring it back up.....
This would have minimal consequence on the cheese moisture. Set time, curd size, agitation, and cook have much more to do with the moisture.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 11:10:31 AM »
Thanks for replying, LinuxBoy.  When you ask about the form factor of the cheese I'm not certain what you mean but I think you  mean the proportions/size.  I have a 7 1/4 X 1 3/8" wheel and a 6 1/2 X 1 1/4" wheel.   The smaller one got dry salted, the larger put into a brine.   The brine was made by Mary Karlin's recipe which calls for 2 1/2 cup water to 1/2 cup salt without telling what saturation this is. 

The recipe didn't get any cooking....it all happens at 90 degrees although it raised to 91 for a bit.  Floc time was 7 minutes and most folks seem to put a 2 1/2 multiplier for washed rind cheeses which would give me a cut time of 17.5 minutes.  Karlin's recipe calls for a 30 minute rennet to cut time.  I let it go the 30 minutes......thinking I would just follow her recipe and see where it took me.  The set was nice and solid but I'm used to that with Nigerian Dwarf goat raw milk. 

The cut was 3/4" and she says to stir it continuously for 30 minutes after letting the cuts firm up for 5 minutes.  I stirred very carefully with a hand...using the time to find larger curds and cutting them down to approx. 3/4".  I noticed the curds getting more formed than I expected but didn't think much of it.....still figuring I'd follow her recipe.  It was at the gently ladling curds into forms to just sit and drain that I realized I'd likely have no knit at all without some weight and since most washed rind recipes call for pressing weight I went ahead and did that.

The larger wheel went into a real press, the smaller into a circus balancing act.  Both at moderate weight although the larger wheel got more and is better knit because of it.  Photos attached.  The larger one went into a brine I'd colored with onion skin and beet juice dye  (made up right before to sub for not having anatto) so it's golden colored.  Was going for peach but  missed.   :( 

I'm guessing that the stirring time was too long even though it was very gentle.  The set time too was too long perhaps; would I have gotten the more fragile curds I think she expects if I'd stuck to floc time even though it was a bit quick?  I'm really not sure what Karlin was expecting to come up with for curds given her directions but the way she wrote it I rather expected to have loose floppy curds almost like a Brie.....ones that didn't require weight and would just be left to drain and form cohesion that way in the mold.

Don't know if this can be a washed rind or not.....do they require a much wetter cheese?  I'm not sure.  And the one that has a looser knit; what should I do with that?  Washed rind or be extremely proactive to avoid molds given all those crevices?

Thanks for the insights on what to look at in my make.......curious what you think with this additional info if you have the time to comment.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 11:27:33 AM »
You can still wash it, just will be less goey if the moisture is less.

Your make was fine overall, but with ND milk, everything is different because of the high solids. Classic floc really only works with regular cow milk. Anything other than that needs adjustment for your milk type. ND milk is special because micelle size is smaller than other goat breeds, so it will let go of water faster. And with the higher protein, you typically need more rennet to achieve the same flavor. This throws off the floc situation and means you have to adjust your multipliers. For a cheese like this, I would use 9-10 ml single strength rennet per 100 bs of milk and a 3.5-4x floc with about the same curd size, but less stirring. So, just a bit longer set with more rennet, and slightly different curd treatment.

To answer your question, brine 30-45 mins per side with saturated brine for those form factors to target a 1.5-1.8% salt in cheese. 1/2 cup of salt weighs around 90-120 grams and 2.5 cups of water is about 600 ml, which would make for a rather weak brine. This concentration makes no sense to me; the only reasonable application for non-saturated brine is in feta. For everything else, seems like too much work to me.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 02:06:22 PM »
Oh, this is great!  Thank you!  The info about ND milk is very helpful.  Let me see if I understand your suggestions......

When you say "Classic floc really only works with regular cow milk" does "classic floc" refer to the multipliers suggested in recipes?

I am just learning and I admit I had no idea that the rennet impacted the flavor.  I thought it was just about coagulation. I should have known it would have other impacts.

So, if I up the rennet amount and increase the multiplier to take into account the need of ND milk to have a longer set time, why am I even using floc timing?  Or rather, assuming the floc method still helpful for finding the optimum cut timing, how do I choose what multiplier to use on each recipe?  Is there a rule of thumb?

If I increase the rennet ( to achieve the flavor the recipe is looking for), even increasing the floc multiplier it seems like it'll still be a very short wait until cutting.  I've had milk set up in 4 minutes and multiplying that by 4 means I'd be cutting after 16 minutes.  You're suggesting a longer set time and I can increase my multiplier even more but won't that make the curd harder? 

And you mention less stirring.....do you mean the stirring or time stirring?  If I stir less but that segment of the make is still the same length of time the curds will clump to the bottom.  Do you suggest gently stirring only enough to keep them from clumping?

As to your comment about the brine....I'm not sure why she makes it weak and suggests a long brine time. Maybe she talks about it somewhere else in the book but I haven't read much of it yet.  I use Gianaclis' book more often.

Thanks!


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 02:52:11 PM »
Quote
"Classic floc really only works with regular cow milk" does "classic floc" refer to the multipliers suggested in recipes?
All recipes are formulated to work for an individual situation. The majority of people use cow milk with moderate solids. Whenever you go outside of those basic parameters, the recipe needs to change to achieve similar results.

Quote
rennet impacted the flavor. 
Residual rennet quantity is a primary agent in building flavor precursors because it keeps breaking down proteins as the cheese ages. So amt is vital. More protein in milk with the same residual rennet = less flavor precursor formation. So for ND milk, helps to use 10-20% more rennet. But that influences coagulation, as it's already high solids, so it's a delicate balance.

Quote
why am I even using floc timing?
Because once you dial in the rennet and floc for your milk profile, it will help you achieve consistent results for you, despite milk variability.

Quote
how do I choose what multiplier to use on each recipe?  Is there a rule of thumb?
Yes, fr soft washed rinds, it's 2.5-4x. The moisture in the final cheese is more than just the multiplier, but it does help to achieve the right target.

Quote
means I'd be cutting after 16 minutes. 
Think about the rate of gellation. With more rennet, the tangential speed of gellation is faster. So 16 mins with 10% more rennet does not result in 10% more set... more like 25% more. So by the time you cut and heal and start stirring, those curds will be able to retain much more moisture.

Quote
a longer set time and I can increase my multiplier even more but won't that make the curd harder? 
harder curd = more moisture retention = more moist cheese.

Quote
do you mean the stirring or time stirring?  If I stir less but that segment of the make is still the same length of time the curds will clump to the bottom.  Do you suggest gently stirring only enough to keep them from clumping?
I'd have to see and feel the curd to tell you. less stirring and draining in molds and less vigorous stirring both result in more moisture in the cheese.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline tnbquilt

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: McDonough GA
  • Posts: 323
  • Cheeses: 13
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 07:11:43 AM »
I have that same book and I have noted that all of the cheeses press very light. The Just Jack recipe presses at 1lb for 15 minutes, and then 5lbs for some other amount of time. I made the recipe and it had cracks in the outside because of the light pressure. I cloth banded it like the recipe said, and yesterday I took the cloth banding off because I could see that the mold was on the cheese, so I took it off, and used a vegetable peeler to peel the cracks with mold in them off. The cheese is knit beautifully on the inside. I cloth banded it again and put it back in the cave.

I do like the book, and she does specify the mould size when she says what to press it at, but it does all seem a little light to me. I will make a recipe once before I alter it though. Next time I will press a little harder, I will use 10lbs instead of 5lbs.
Tammy

Offline Spellogue

  • Michael
  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Ohio
  • Posts: 303
  • Cheeses: 14
  • Default personal text
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 09:39:03 AM »
Thanks for the info in this thread.  I always knew my ND milk is quite different than other goat milks. But this really helps me nail down many of the effects and what I should do to impact them in a make.
I can resist anything but temptation.      ~ Oscar Wilde

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 11:10:04 AM »
LinuxBoy,  I'm making cheese today and was scanning your basic Tomme recipe as an option and I want to check something with you.  In that recipe you suggest using the lower end of the rennet amount range for higher solids milk such as Nigerian goat or sheep but in your posts above you've suggested that I increase rennet by 10-20%.  Can you help me understand this descrepancy .....recipe needs updating, increased rennet amount don't apply to this style of cheese or some other explanation?  And if it is a good idea to increase rennet for this recipe can you suggest a floc multiplier please? 

Thanks so much.....whenever you have a chance to respond is fine.  I can make some other cheese today.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 11:16:03 AM »
I need to change the tomme recipe, that's an outdated approach I tried years ago when using normal solids milk. I've bred for more solids now in my foundation herd and have tweaked the recipe with a better understanding of the realities of higher solids milk after a few seasons. Thanks for reminding me. I would use 8.5 ml rennet per 100 lbs right now in this later lactation, with a floc multiplier of 3x and rather small curd, like small peas (4-5mm)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 11:34:12 AM by linuxboy »
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 11:37:31 AM »
Thanks!  As for where the recipe resides.....I think I got my copy off the non-forum part of the site but I think it's on a thread also in the Tomme section? 

After some looking, here's where I got your recipe from:
http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67:washed-curd-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66

I bet Boofer or Jeff Hamm know where it is on the forum site.  I tried to find it on this board:  http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/board,178.0.html  but there are 21 pages of threads....have to start the cheese so I can't look now. 

Thank you so much for the quick reply!

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 11:41:14 AM »
Found it, and changed. Thanks! Previous approach worked in making good cheese, too, and made a lot of logical sense. But after a few years working with ND cross milk and talking to other cheesemakers in Europe and here, what's logical isn't always what's absolutely best in cheesemaking.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 11:49:14 AM »
Okay, now my ears are perking up.  What are you crossing the ND with?  I'm headed in the direction of crosses myself to get the advantages of solids with a bit more quantity.  And can you post the link to your recipe if there's a copy of it on the forum? 

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 11:54:27 AM »
Lamanchas, for same reason as you. Also have a few experimental grades. It's just the two of us most of the time and fewer does for the same volume started to seem appealing after a while. It's the same recipe. the one on the site is the more detailed one.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: washed rind style jumping ship and going into never,never land
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 01:07:13 PM »
Why Lamanchas?  I don't know them well enough to guess what is special about them except that you'll get a wide range of interesting ear styles!   ;D   I have been considering Alpine crossed with ND but need to research more. 

it's just me that does the goat and sheep care although Joseph is happy help out here and there with 2 person aspects of the herd but it's mostly me doing the herd work and the cheese making.  I'm not trying to do this commercially although we barter for artisanal wood oven sourdough bread and a few other things.  With a separate business to tend I'd really like to lower the number of hours I spend in the barn and less but bigger goats seems one way to do that.