Author Topic: Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?  (Read 364 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?
« on: February 24, 2014, 07:53:04 PM »
Staying in tomme and reblochon land, until I get my memory and technique back in order.  Thank you to all of you for all your expertise and generosity.  My catching-up is going well, all due to you. 

Seeking a tomme with a slightly softer, creamier paste, thick rind, strong flavors.  Notes, (mild, balanced) meaty, mushroom, nuttiness, some tang, though the acid as an "accent" or enhancer, and not a "flavor." Long, slow acid curve of at least 12 hours in the mould.

Plan is:

4 gallons whole milk

MA4001 MC in at 1% b.e.
1/8 tsp TA50
1/16 tsp LH100
(or, 1/8 tsp Thermo C.  Not sure about the S. thermophilus in the C - faster, or slower acidifier?)
(also, not sure about using helveticus v. bulgaricus for a lactobacillus, given this isn't a long-aged gruyere, beaufort, etc....4 months expected aging.  Maybe Thermo B a better choice?  Pav?)

either 1/4 tsp PLA or a blend of 1/16 DH, possibly 1/32 KL71 as well, 1/16 Geo 13
1/8 tsp mycodore
1/16 tsp MVA

-cut at 1/2", or 3/8" and 4X floc multiplier

-washed curd

2% morge of PLA (or made up blend) + Mycodore + MVA

-55F, 90% RH
-Gently wash daily until evidence of yeast, sticky rind, expected about a week (this, or dip for two days, and wash every few days, also likely a week?)?

-leave alone, allow thick mould growth until needs to be brushed back or patted down.

keep this going, to terminal affinage, an expected 4 months or so.


Many thanks,


Edit:  "Buttery" is definitely a quality I'd like to see, too, but don't want to confuse the blends with more adjuncts, such as LBC 80/81 or MD 89, etc.  Pav, somewhere I saw your comment on allowing tommes to be, no beaufort-style morge washing routine, and thus molds take hold - and lend a buttery quality.  Can you go into this a bit?  Do molds aid diacetyl development?

And, a question I asked elsewhere but it probably got buried.  Mycodore is referred to as both a yeast and a mold.  Is it one or the other, or both, depending on environmental factors? If only using mycodore in your tomme, is this your central mold?  Or is it a yeast, setting the stage like other yeasts, geo - and the mould is autochthnous, and hopefully desired?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 08:53:42 PM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul

Offline Boofer

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Re: Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 09:14:56 AM »
the mould is autochthnous, and hopefully desired?
Boy, Paul, had to google that one. ;)

The direction for this make seems promising. It encourages me to get back to a Tomme, which I haven't done in ages.

Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine,'s all good.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 09:19:16 AM »
Hahahah, well, Boof, that one comes from our good man Pav - recall him talking to me about it, referencing Beaufort.  If all roads lead to Paris, I find at least most roads lead from....linuxboy.  ;D

Thanks for the encouragement, Boof.  I'm thinking of doing only tommes for awhile - I've forgotten so much of the science, and my technical chops have slipped quite a bit.  Back to school, learning one variable at a time.  Nice to be back, man!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:25:07 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 11:24:09 AM »
Amended "trial" tommes.  As I mention above, trying one cheese compositional aspect at a time to get a feel again.  For now, moisture content.  Variables include cut size, strike (initial) temperature, cooking temp/time profile, floc target, and floc multiplier. 

The generic tommes will get:


Edit:  Emulating alpine practice, I will not be prematuring the milk; enough on hand during the transhumance or other collective activities to do a make from one milking, twice a day, with fresh milk.  A poor substitute for pure, raw milk, however, for now, it's what I have:  I'll add in some adjuncts, MD 89 and LBC 82, along with LH100 in MC dosing level of 0.2%.  If I were doing a prematuration schedule,

4 gallons whole milk, prematured 24 hours at 39F with 0.2% b.e. MD 89.  A bit of diacetyl.  7.56 ml per gallon of milk.  Or, DVI DCU's, 0.2*.9842 DCUs/4 gallons = 0.197 DCUs, very minute amount.  For my 50 DCU packet, 0.197/50*100=0.4% of packet content's weight for 4 gallons, 0.1% in each gallon.  Not sure I'm going to be able to weigh this small an amount out.  Pav or anyone familiar with using DCU's and bulk equivalents, can you help me out?  Is this math right?  Any suggestions for using DVI, here, a ballpark in (/) tsp's?

Raw milk trials will get no prematuration. 

0.8% b.e. MA 4000; 4 ounces/121 ml for the 4 gallon batch.

Temp 100F, the higher temp of this make.  I'd like ST as well, but as the MA4001 contains at least some ST, I'll use only LH100 for thermo, later aging body and taste contributor.  0.2% LH100, will thus go in at 1 ounce/30 ml for the 4 gallon batch.



1/16 tsp DH
1/16 tsp KL71
1/16 tsp Geo 13
1/16 tsp Mycodore
1/16 tsp Mycoderm (possibly)

"Interior Adjuncts"
1/32 tsp MD89
1/32 tsp LBC 82
1/32 tsp MVA

Initial temp, cooking time/temp and holding all starting out per Pav's recipe:  88F, renneting, ramp to 100F with three washes and cook/hold to proper consistency. 

Rennetting is a variable; starting with 45 ml/100# milk, window of 12-18 minutes, but allowing to go to 24 minutes.

Floc multiplier is a variable; starting with 3.0, but allowing to go to 4

Cutting size is a variable; starting with 3/8", but allowing to go as low as 1/4" & as high as 3/8"

10 minute heal post cutting.

Washing curd, per Pav's and Francois's recommendations.  Pav recommends 1/3 of the original milk (more removed), Francois, 1/3 of the existing whey (less removed).  I've never been great at estimating the total whey, so will go with 18.75% of the original milk volume.  Here, 3 quarts. 

pH targets: Rennet at Δ0.05-0.10 pH; drain, 6.45-6.50; brining, 5.4.

Mold time: shooting for at least 12 hours.

Brine in 20% salt by weight 3.5 hours per pound. 

Drying x 1 day at 70F, 60% RH
Aging at 55F, 88% RH
Morge: 2% salinity, same species as the vat inoculation ("Pyrenees"), save the "interior adjuncts"

Each wheel gets dipped x 2 days.  Then daily washing until evidence of yeast growth.
Each wheel left alone for 3 weeks, so long as mould growth is healthy.  Longer or shorter period, trying to maintain the same length, vitality in all wheels' surface cultures. 

4 months, or until trier shows the wheel is ready.

Thanks again for any thoughts, guys.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:54:53 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Tomme "Winter 4" - thoughts, critiques?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 11:00:39 AM »
Edits above.  I'm trying to strike a balance between keeping it simple and using pure culture adjuncts, but for the moment I'm debilitated on the former by the lack of raw, spring milk.  Once I do obtain the raw milk, I'll keep the yeasts, the geo, the Myco's, strike both the MD89 and LBC82, but keep the LH100.  My hope then, is for a rustic rind, a rustic cheese; to be as transparent in allowing herbaceous, grassy, floral notes through, backed by nuts, butter, perhaps a touch of fruit with the KL71, and a softer, creamier mouthfeel than is found in some firmer tommes.

I know there have been a lot of changes, but any and all input is greatly appreciated, guys.  (Dust devil and echos, stirring in the wind...)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:29:07 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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