Author Topic: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)  (Read 46122 times)

Alpkäserei

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To be clear, you do in fact have linens growth on those cheeses. It may not be the same kind or in the same concentration but they are there, or else your rind would fail. My methods rely primarily on wild B Linens, with a few other yeasts and bacteriae in there helping it all along.

If you want less BL, you use a really salty wash and you should probably have a higher amount of liquid relative to the amount of cheese being washed

More BL, less liquid.
If this makes sense, the more solution you have the less the dissolved linens by percentage. But we shouldn't just throw our wash out and start new, we need to be passing it along to ensure all our rinds are good.



mnml

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Actually you CAN have a proper rind without BL, thanks to salt.  Our alpine style is washed with salt water only, and sometimes develops no BL at all, while in the same room, our heavy BL cheese is rinding up well.

Back on topic: How can we prevent BLUE mold from developing.  Hundreds of pounds of cheese have gradually been added into this aging room since we have started making it again, so the respiration has been increasing. It just makes zero sense how an industrial anti-microbial solution will not stop this blue growth.

Mermaid

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Alp- incredible post. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of the schmier! I've been really craving this info. A big cheese for you!

Someone who shall not be named instructed me to dry my cheeses after brining and before putting them in the cave . So I've been drying my appenzeller before aging. Currently the cave is too cold - about 46 Fahrenheit and 85-90 rh. I'm not getting much action at all on the rinds - even those that are a month or two old!
So... Can I start your suggested washing regimen this late in the cheeses aging process - given that the rind is dry and clean?

Also if I start washing a cheese that has a little surface mold, will this carry over to the other cheeses I wash with that brine?

Alpkäserei

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I challenge you to culture the rind. YOu will find some amount of some strain of BL. Just remember, there are so many that you might not realize it even. But the fact is in order for a rind to form, some chemical change has to happen. Salt will not stop a BL, it will stop molds and yeast. We will salt a rind so that only the things we want will grow. Even a 'clean' rind has been altered chemically due to action of aerobic bacteria. Otherwise, it would dry out and split and have problems.

As for drying a rind,

For Appenzeller it is customary to set the cheeses out of the brine for one or two days before you will wash them. I typically do this on a cheese with a high moisture content -that is, something I cook to less than 115 degrees such as Appenzeller would be when it is made properly. So like a Mutschli I would also dry for a day before I wash it.

you can really start this washing any time. I had some cheeses that were salt washed, and after several months I decided I wanted them to have a little more of a distinct look so I washed with a red wine based solution. I got a good rind, just like your normally would.
You are not getting action because your temperature is much too low. You need to be at 55 degrees.
As a general rule, the 'cleaner' we want our rind -the less action and Schmier- the colder we will make the room. The heavier and gooier we will have a temperature closer to 60 or even a little above.


That's why when we make an Emmentaler, we first form the rind for a week or two in a cold room. If we put it straight into the warm room then the rind will get really gooey and that's not appropriate for this cheese. But some times for something like my Mutschli I want a sticky gooey rind so I'll wash it for a few days at room temperature.

Alpkäserei

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The best treatment for mold I have ever found is alcohol.

is it really blue mold you have, or is it 'wild blue' which is actually common yeast. -Does it smell kind of dusty and damp?
I don't know what you are saying about industrial treatment, I don't use anything like that.

But alcohol is toxic to mold, and then on top of that it will also condition the surface of the cheese to have a pH and chemical balance that is not very inviting to molds. I have never had any mold survive more than two washings with alcohol based solutions.

If you really need to kill off an invasion, wash everything down with straight dry white wine.

Offline Al Lewis

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And cognac works great for both mold relief and the "schmier"  All credit for this one goes to Alp for his excellent counseling and personal tutoring through the process of making this excellent Mutschli. ;)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 04:02:29 AM by Al Lewis »
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Mermaid

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Thank you for your thoughtful response ! Everything is finally starting to make sense. :)

Offline sprocket

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Alp - do you have an idea as to what minimum concentrations of alcohol are necessary to be effective?  We have an abundance of old apple trees on the property, from which I usually make cider in the fall that tests out to about 6-7% alcohol.  Would this be effective enough to manage molds, or do we need something higher like th 12-13% found in wine?


Offline awakephd

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Uh-oh. I foresee a scenario involving a back-yard still and the revenuers ... :)
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Mermaid

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How much wine to put in the brine?

Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2015, 04:54:01 PM »
I use about four cups to a gallon but others may vary.  With cognac I use a small spray bottle with a 25/75% solution and mist the cheese prior to brushing with a clean paint brush.  To eradicate mold use straight white wine.
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Stinky

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Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2015, 05:24:37 PM »
I keep mine in a tupperware, have maybe three or so cups of water, and sploosh some in. Not too careful about it.

mnml

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Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2015, 10:01:06 PM »
I think it's worth mentioning that since this is my job, not home hobby, I am producing a larger amount than most folks on here (I presume).  A little over 200 lb of cheese goes into our aging room every week during this season, so I'm thinking the amount of respiration going on is producing an unstoppable blue.  I mentioned DelvoCid to my bosses after we were having no luck with Natamycin, since I've successfully used DelvoCid at my previous employer, my university's dairy and cheese plant.

Needless to say, we will have to test on a few wheels before going all out on the white wine. Washing our entire room and merchandise with it would be impossibly expensive.

Alpkäserei

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Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2015, 10:29:50 PM »
I think it is worth mentioning this is my job, and I have the befefit of a 5000 year old tradition backing what I say.

Blue is never unstoppable and is always the result of something somewhere being done wrong, when we are talking about washed rinds.
The methods I teach can be backed by millions of pounds of cheese produced in Switzerland each year, where most standards forbid the use of any chemical treatments and use only simple salt or wine based brine.

White wine can be had for dirt cheap. $3 a bottle for low end stuff, and then you dillute it 1:3 with water and add salt. I don't see where this would be a major expense compared to chemicals?
Since you probably have a mold haven some where anyway...

It is good practice to completely wash your aging room yearly.

Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2015, 10:31:53 PM »
I think it's worth mentioning that since this is my job, not home hobby, I am producing a larger amount than most folks on here (I presume).  A little over 200 lb of cheese goes into our aging room every week during this season, so I'm thinking the amount of respiration going on is producing an unstoppable blue.  I mentioned DelvoCid to my bosses after we were having no luck with Natamycin, since I've successfully used DelvoCid at my previous employer, my university's dairy and cheese plant.

Needless to say, we will have to test on a few wheels before going all out on the white wine. Washing our entire room and merchandise with it would be impossibly expensive.

Go to Trader Joe's.  Robert Shaw white wine is $2.99 a bottle!! LOL  ;D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 04:04:47 PM by Al Lewis »
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