Author Topic: Goat's Milk Reblechon?  (Read 844 times)

Offline velward

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: New Mexico
  • Posts: 37
  • Cheeses: 0
Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« on: January 25, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »
I have a small goat herd and was wondering what adjustments need to made to iratherfly's Reb recipe to allow for fresh goat's milk
Don't wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel, stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,617
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 10:13:48 PM »
What breed of goat?  it makes a difference.  Nigerian Dwarf, Lamancha and Nubian have much higher solids than the others.  LinuxBoy posted some info on modification of recipes to meet the needs of goat milk.  I think it's on a thread I started on the Problems board entitled something like, "Help! Washed rind make jumping ship".  It was within the last 5 months I think.  Okay, just went and looked for it.  It's there on the Problem board Last posted to on December 16.  see if there's any help there.  I also know some folks recommend lowering all recipe temps for goat milk.  I often don't do that because I forget.  it mostly turns out fine.  You also do a search on adapting recipes to goat milk.  I did some Reblochon but I messed up the recipe so although it turned into a very cool cheese it wasn't what it set out to be.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 11:00:28 PM »
So Kathrin and I had a back and forth discussion about her attempt and I am waiting eagerly to hear news of her next success.

A goat milk Reblochon is actually another cheese called Chevrotin. Chevrotin des Aravis comes from the same area in the Savoie and made by the same cheesemakers that also make Reblochon. It's a coveted cheese and one of my absolute favorites. I wrote about it here and there on the forum.  For my creamery one of my production candidates is something I callfondly "Reblotin" It's a mixed milk 50% cow / 50% goat Reblochin / Chevrotin, kind of the best of both worlds, tang and spice of Cehvrotin mixed with the creaminess and milkness of Reblochon.

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 02:31:14 AM »
So to answer her original question, any major modification (rennet wise, set time) one needs to do when working with goat's milk and following the Reb  recipe?
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline Back 2 The Frotture

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Posts: 36
  • Cheeses: 2
  • Default personal text
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 03:24:10 PM »
Assuming that the goats and cows have the same diet and same milk production stage, same age, with the same health, etc, there are no major differences that would change set times.  The recipe for chevrotin on the other hand is not that of the reblochon for good reason.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,617
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 04:43:42 PM »
Assuming that the goats and cows have the same diet and same milk production stage, same age, with the same health, etc, there are no major differences that would change set times.  The recipe for chevrotin on the other hand is not that of the reblochon for good reason.


I don't believe that is true.  Cows and goats produce milk through a different process and there quite a few differences in the milk and the way it reacts.  And different breeds of goats, and I assume this is true for cows too from what I hear and read, have quite a range of difference as well.  At least, according to the professional cheese makers who are actually doing it, there are differences.  The fat and protein content vary widely by breed and species and the fat is further varied by globule size.

Linuxboy wrote this in response to a problem I had with a make:
"Your make was fine overall, but with ND (Nigerian Dwarf goat) milk, everything is different because of the high solids. Classic floc really only works with regular cow milk. Anything other than that needs adjustment for your milk type. ND milk is special because micelle size is smaller than other goat breeds, so it will let go of water faster. And with the higher protein, you typically need more rennet to achieve the same flavor. This throws off the floc situation and means you have to adjust your multipliers. For a cheese like this, I would use 9-10 ml single strength rennet per 100 bs of milk and a 3.5-4x floc with about the same curd size, but less stirring. So, just a bit longer set with more rennet, and slightly different curd treatment."

The entire thread with some other very helpful info about adjusting recipes for goat milk is here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10442.0.html


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 04:57:06 PM »
Quote
there are no major differences that would change set times.
Absolutely there are. Breed differences account for huge variability in components and how they interact. The typical recipes out there are genericized for large production with Hostein milk for cows and bulk Alpine or mixed breed milk for goats. Any time you have better genetics or better feed, recipes must be adjusted to achieve the outcome you want. Now this is not to say that a generic recipe will make poor cheese. Chances are it will work fine, but usually, it is not the optimal in terms of a make parameter, such as yield optimization, or stir schedule to arrive at MFFB target, or acidification schedule.

As a simple example, take gouda. If you make gouda with Holstein milk, you have to wash it more (water volume) because holstein milk has more lactose than, say, a Guernsey. And for goat milk if you're washing, different story completely because you're usually more interested in casein solubilization with goat milk and curd washing than straight lactose removal. But that's not always true, because it depends on micelle size and casein subtyping. It's not all that straightforward, there are tons of nuances to take into account. Knowing  breed, milk composition, and feed is key if you're really trying to dial in a cheese.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 05:03:41 PM by linuxboy »
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,617
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 05:03:54 PM »
LinuxBoy,  So glad you chimed in here!  I was hoping you would.  Since you are talking about washed curd cheese I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit since it's a type of cheese I like to make but I'm still a bit clueless.  I like the cheese I'm turning out but I'd like to understand what you wrote.  Can you help me understand this bit you wrote:
And for goat milk if you're washing, different story completely because you're usually more interested in casein solubilization with goat milk and curd washing than straight lactose removal. But that's not always true, because it depends on micelle size and casein subtyping.

Thanks!  And hope your kidding season is going well if it's started.   :)


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 05:10:35 PM »
Can you start another thread please with casein solubilization in the title? Don't want to sidetrack OP.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,617
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 05:17:36 PM »
I'd be glad to.  Which board do you think it would fit best on?


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 07:38:53 PM »
If it's a washed curd discussion, then washed curd forum, I suppose.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Tiarella

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Chester, MA, US
  • Posts: 1,617
  • Cheeses: 70
  • Default personal text
    • Farm Blog
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 07:43:53 PM »
If it's a washed curd discussion, then washed curd forum, I suppose.

Okay, I'll put it there.  Wasn't sure if it should go there or on the "Standard Methods - making cheese, everything except coagulation", or even on the "Ingredients - Milk types" board. 

Offline Back 2 The Frotture

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Posts: 36
  • Cheeses: 2
  • Default personal text
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 01:36:00 AM »
all this is true, but if you are going to make a goat cheese with cow recipe for the first time, you can safely say that it will work without major differences (45' floc time instead of 17').  The rest is adjusting to your milk according to your various factors (race, season, food, etc).  If you make a sheep cheese with a cow recipe...

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 01:52:19 AM »
Quote
goat cheese with cow recipe for the first time, you can safely say that it will work without major differences
This is usually true, but not always. If I used a cow milk recipe for my Nigerian cross goat milk, the cheese would be way, way off. In winter, I'm hitting ~4% protein, 5.5% fat. My floc with normal amounts of rennet (9 ml/cwt) is 4 mins at pH 6.5. No way I can use a normal floc multiplier with that, it just doesn't work to hit target MFFBs. I need to drag it out and cut curd smaller instead and sometimes fiddle with the temps to hit my time vs pH markers. Likely worse for straight Nigerian milk. On the other extreme, you have a commercial Alpine from a 1000 head dairy that's cranking out 12 lbs/day/head at 2.3% protein, 2.8% fat. Or using unpooled milk with limited light during the night and making a separate cheese in the morning.

Or say you're using Nubians where micelle size is bigger so you have to drag out ripening without affecting pH curve too much to avoid chalkiness. Can't just use a straight recipe, cheese may even have defects then.

I get what you're saying, and in normal situations it all works out, but there are outliers.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline velward

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: New Mexico
  • Posts: 37
  • Cheeses: 0
Re: Goat's Milk Reblechon?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 02:14:25 PM »
Thank you all, for your input and advice. What I'm really seeing here is that I need to experiment with my purebred LaMancha milk and adjust it as I go. I have been making cheese for around 5 years so I'm not afraid : )
Don't wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel, stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!