Author Topic: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!  (Read 2068 times)

Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 09:45:48 AM »
8 to 1 press facto
8 to 1 press factor
8 to 1 press factor
got it? ;)

This is the rule in Switzerland, and they make the best cheeses in the world so maybe we should pay attention  ;D

keeping the cheese warm is only necessary up to the point where the curd is knit. after this uncover it
too much salt looks to be a common problem here. how big was this cheese? those brining times look like maaybe more along the lines of an Alpkäse, which may be my fault too.
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 10:17:49 AM »
here is some more information from the Emmentaler Pflichtenheft, the document outlining the legal requirements for this cheese
these are a few guidelines of what is allowable
water added to milk.   0 to 12
coagulation.                 35 to 45 min
water added to curd    0 to 20%
heating                           52 to 54 c  in  30 - 60 minutes
pressing                        up to 20 hours, 500 to 2000 kg ( ypur numbers are much lower due to smaller cheese)
brine                               20-22 Be (a measure of salinity) 24 to 72 hours (for a giant 100 kg cheese
storage in warm room 19 to 24 c 70 to 90% rh 30 to 70 day
storage in aging room 11 to 14
dry aging                        70 to 90% r
wet aging                       obver 90% rh

note the option to add water at 2 points during the make process.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 02:06:49 PM »
water added to milk.   0 to 12
water added to curd    0 to 20%
note the option to add water at 2 points during the make process.

0-12? (%, oz, cups?)
is there an advantage to add water? (expel whey, wash curd?)
If so, at which point would it be the most beneficial?
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 02:17:39 PM »
sorry i wrote that on my phone, which some times has the bad habit of deleting the last character on some lines.
some kind of software incompatibility apparently
those amounts are percentages
0 to 12 % water relative to milk amount can be added before rennet. should be same temp as milk
0 to 20% water relative to the 'bruch' which is the contents of the vat including curd and whey camn be added after curd is cut. same temp as bruch.
this works a lot like washing the curd, it reduces overall acidity and so results in a sweeter cheese.
note that this is water added, not whey replaced b water.
with a washed curd you remove whey and replace with hot water to raise temp=of the Bruch. with emmentaler if you use water you add same temp water to the Bruch and then raise the temp with direct heat as normal. So not really a washed curd, you could classify it as reduced acidity curd.
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 02:28:30 PM »
That sounds like it could help in the PS activity by cutting back on acidity, interesting 8)
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Offline Al Lewis

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2013, 02:29:28 PM »
Very interesting.
 :o

Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2013, 03:12:06 PM »
8 to 1 press facto
8 to 1 press factor
8 to 1 press factor
got it? ;)

This is the rule in Switzerland, and they make the best cheeses in the world so maybe we should pay attention  ;D

keeping the cheese warm is only necessary up to the point where the curd is knit. after this uncover it
too much salt looks to be a common problem here. how big was this cheese? those brining times look like maaybe more along the lines of an Alpkäse, which may be my fault too.
Got it :)
I think I will lighten up on the press and under warm whey time and cut brine time down to circa 5 hours :-\
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 03:28:07 PM »
there are 3 ways which the Emmentaler varies from our Alpkäse. The first is obvious, it is proprianic. But the other two always puzzled me until I studied the pflichtenheft. It is softer, and it is sweeter. This was strange because the cooking and brewing stages ware nearly identical, and Emmentaler is often cooked higher than our cheese. We also use the same cultures.
the secret, I have found, lies in 2 minor variations early in production. First is the addition of water. %his accounts for the sweetness but not necessarily the softness. The second is a slightly longer coagulation time. our cheese sets for 30 to 35 minutes. Emmentaler sets 35 to 40 minutes.This is why it is softer. This is also why Gruyere is softer than our cheese, even tough it has a somewhat more aggressive cooking stage.
I actually have varied my recipe a little bit from the Alpkäse in order to make a somewhat softer cheese. When it comes to modifying a basic recipe to achieve specific results, this is another area to adjust. 
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Offline H-K-J

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »
Glad you brought up coagulation time, that was one of the points of change I am going to factor into my next Emmentaller, (a slightly longer flock time)
and now I will also try the added water, I think the 12% at the start would be easier, just because it would be warmed at the same time as the milk.
that way there is less hassle trying to keep water at the same temp as the heated milk.
Just my take at the moment (could change at any time ;))
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 03:57:36 PM »
I am not certain how effective the water at the beginning actually is. It could slow down the culture by diluting the lactose I guess
But adding water after cutting would seem more affective in reducing acid. thoug i might be off here.
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Offline tnbquilt

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 07:53:36 PM »

If this being the case, this is more than likely where I failed.
My warm room was bouncing back and forth between 66 and 74 deg.F, between that and the old newbie don't screw-up syndrome and OH MY GAWD wusapennin now, I just created a new fail :-[
On the bright side, Man that cheese tastes GOOOOOOoooouuud ;D

My first Swiss never made it back in the cave to age. When it started swelling, I left it out on the table, and it cracked and I cut it open and we ate it. It was delicious.
Tammy

Offline green zebra

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 08:00:05 PM »
I am going to make some Emmental this weekend and will go with an 8 gallon size. 200 easy homemade cheeses, suggests making this size in two batches and i am fortunate to have two 20 litre sized pots, so i will make the batches separately but at the same time.  ^-^

My question is what is equivalent to the LH culture?  I have none and would like to add a similar one along with the Thermo B. Ms. Caldwell suggests using Thermo B and Thermo C, of which i have both, but  was hoping to try something different.

Any suggestions?  Thank you!
Doris

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 09:22:50 AM »
If you make it in 2 batches, they HAVE to be made at the same time. We've discussed this 200 recipe 2 batch thing elsewhere. It won't work to make them at different times, they won't fuse together properly. Although apparently Morbier used to be made out of 2 batches made hours apart.

LH is Lactobacillus Helveticus

Any strain of Lactobacillus will work. There will be slight nuances to the flavor of different bacteria, but they are all similar enough for an Emmentaler.

So you can use anything that contains L. Delbrueckii, L. Bulgaricus, L. Helveticus, etc.

An Emmetaler needs 3 bacteria to work,
Streptococcus Thermophilus
Lactobacillus of some sort
P. Shermanii


As I think about the water issue, I come to the conclusion that it probably does not matter much when you are adding it, so long as it is the same temp as the milk/bruch. Adding water of a different temperature could trigger chemical changes, but adding water otherwise likely just dilutes the acid. Replacing whey actually removes acid, so has a more pronounced affect on pH. adding water is probably a little more gentle and subtle
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Offline green zebra

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 08:08:43 PM »
Thank you Alp,
I will make the two batches at the same time and have decided to substitute LH100 with Thermo C. I just would like to see this cheese create its large holes!!

I had made a swiss some time ago and because the recipe was made with only 12 litres, using Ricki's recipe, my cheese did not bulge. When it was broken into, there were no holes! THEN i researched that this cheese is best made with large amounts of milk, so here i try again.

My mold of choice measures 7 3/4" diam x 7 1/2" tall. I had made a 5 gallon cheese in this mold and had room to spare, so i am hoping the 8 gallons will fit!

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Re: Emmentaler Rezept, auf Wunsch!
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 08:32:23 PM »
holes come from P. Shermanii. This is also the source of the signature flavor. This is a secondary culture also added to the milk that kicks in during the aging process.

If there are no holes and no bulging, there is not ps growth.

So you would need
Thermo B, Thermo C, and P Shermanii

Which is the same bacteria as if you would use a TA and LH plus PS, but maybe in different proportions.
Guät git's dr schwiizer Chäser