Author Topic: bitter brie cheese  (Read 1369 times)

Offline waterbearer

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bitter brie cheese
« on: March 29, 2013, 02:35:50 PM »
I recently cut one of brie knowing it wasn't fully aged but the taste was very bitter.Any idea what would cause this.


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »
Your proteolysis was way too rapid for the paste. Breaks down b-casein to create bitter peptides. Suggest using cooler aging temp. The milk quality might also not be there to support the make.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 04:26:26 PM »
This is too warm for a normal cam/brie. you should be 42-45F
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2013, 06:38:51 PM »
I get my best results around 48-50F which would be like 9-10C with a camembert. Have never tried a Brie but it's basically the same, just a different form

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 06:54:10 PM »
waterbearer,please post you recipe and the ratios of your compounds and your methodology ,,,,,apart from the answers

already given there are a couple of other reasons that can cause bitterness,,,,

many regards ,,brian


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Offline Johan Ainslie

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2013, 11:53:25 PM »
As I understand it, the wetter/larger the curds, the softer, more acid the cheese. More acid cheese becomes more bitter with aging.
That means the curds have to be stirred more the get a drier curd which in turn will result in a less acid cheese.
When I make brie or camembert I start stirring the curd after a 15 minute rest after cutting the curd and keep doing this in 10 minute intervals for up to 6 times. I take out as much whey as possible before every stirring.

Hope this makes sense.

Offline Tomer1

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 02:00:40 AM »
From my expirience acid production just stops when the bacteria reachs its limit, espacially when the cheese is left to drain in a cooler kitchen overnight.   so... 4.7-4.9ish

But your right,
Moisture content is important, too much and slip skin\uneven paste ripening is a sure bet. higher moisture promotes a more rapid enzymatic activity and in higher cave temp (12-14c) , way too rapid...
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Offline bbracken677

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 10:53:04 AM »
As I understand it, the wetter/larger the curds, the softer, more acid the cheese. More acid cheese becomes more bitter with aging.
That means the curds have to be stirred more the get a drier curd which in turn will result in a less acid cheese.
When I make brie or camembert I start stirring the curd after a 15 minute rest after cutting the curd and keep doing this in 10 minute intervals for up to 6 times. I take out as much whey as possible before every stirring.

Hope this makes sense.


The PC raises the pH...Although I have not checked it, I believe that once ripe, the paste should be around a pH of 6 or perhaps even a tad higher.

I never stir my curds before molding, I just ladle them out after the flocc period (6x) and let them drain in the molds...they usually drain to about 1/3 to 1/4 their original height in about a day, perhaps a bit longer. Then they are salted. 


Here is a video...once they start dipping the curd into the molds, check out the condition of the curds:

Camembert Cheese, France
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 11:03:41 AM by bbracken677 »

Offline linuxboy

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2013, 12:08:24 PM »
Quote
wetter/larger the curds, the softer, more acid the cheese. More acid cheese becomes more bitter with aging
Bitterness has one end cause, with multiple possible co-factors. It is caused by small peptides, most often from b-casein. With that in mind, we have to consider what causes b-casein breakdown. And that comes down to enzymatic and non-enzymatic reactions. Acidity affects rate of reaction, sure, but not to the same degree as available moisture. So it's not necessarily true that a more acid cheese will become more bitter than aging. However, a more moist cheese, all other things being equal, will. Water increases rate of breakdown.

There are a few ways to troubleshoot root cause from here going down the co-factor trees:
- Figure out if it's the milk. Do this by making the same recipe and changing the milk. Sometimes, milk is off. Seasonality is big now, milk is unstable in early lactation.
- Figure out if it's the final components of cheese (meaning moisture too high)
- Figure out if it's the enzymatic blend in plasmin, rennin, or bacterial peptidase and protease mix. might be contamination/psychotrophs/thermodurics.
- Figure out if it's the aging or rind dynamic. In the sense of temp too high, contamination of rind, etc

Eliminate one variable at a time until it's figured out. Acidity is just one part.
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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2013, 08:11:59 PM »
thankyou WATERBEARER for posting recipe etc,,,,,you are very lucky to have access to JERSEY milk

yes i was looking for over dosing of RENNET and/or CALCIUM CHLORIDE both notorius for generating bitterness

i feel that the RENNET dose if single strength is fine , but one eighth of a teaspoon [ i assume that's what you meant in

recipe ] of CALCIUM CHLORIDE in 2 x litres of milk ,,,especially JERSEY milk as it is much higher in FAT and PROTEIN than

other cows milk,,,,,may well be a little too much hence being the cause or a major one of your problems

i use only one sixteenth of a teaspoon in 8 x litres

i have a great love for making CAMEMBERT/BRIE , have been fortunate in only ever had one failure , but that was a most

bloody spectacular event ,,,learnt a lot !!!!!!!!!!

i also add to eight litres of milk , apart from PC ,600ml of cream , GC and FLORA DANICA,,,,,,,,and brine with a tiny bit of

VINEGAR , PC and GC

many regards and good luck ,,,,,,brian






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Offline bbracken677

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Re: bitter brie cheese
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 03:54:56 AM »
In your recipe, you state that "no incubation time needed" ...does that mean you add the culture and then immediately add the rennet?