Author Topic: 2nd Cam - extremly runny  (Read 826 times)

Offline seemunkee

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 33
  • Cheeses: 3
  • Default personal text
2nd Cam - extremly runny
« on: April 15, 2013, 08:41:45 PM »
Here is my 2nd attempt at a Camembert.  I'm guessing that I didn't let it drain enough whey, or possibly didn't salt it enough.  The inside was a bit dry.  Milk was 2 gallons skim with 2 pints of cream. 
We tried a second one from this batch a few weeks later and it came out with the same runnyness under the rind, but the center was smoother.  I have two more and not sure if I should let them age more, or serve them as is.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline WovenMeadows

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Saranac, NY
  • Posts: 162
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 08:48:53 PM »
I came to the forum to ask the very same thing. Just cut into a half-brie that looks almost identical to your pic - very runny under the rind, while still firm in the center. I cut the whole wheel in half, moved one half aside, and the center from the first half almost slid out on its own. Still quite mild tasting though. Made from fresh, whole Jersey milk.

Offline seemunkee

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 33
  • Cheeses: 3
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 08:54:12 PM »
We can learn together.

Offline WovenMeadows

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Saranac, NY
  • Posts: 162
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 09:21:23 PM »
Searching and perusing past posts on the matter, it's seeming like too high moisture is the culprit. This could come from not leaching out enough whey from curd in vat, or from not draining in molds long enough, or - I suspect? - letting set too long after flocculation. The increased moisture, while making the cheese softer to begin with, also quickens subsequent ripening and proteolysis.

In my case, I use whole Jersey milk which I've pasteurized and cooled to 85-90, I inoculate with FD or MM100 cultures, and both Pen. Cand. and Geo. molds., age at 50 to 55 until bloomy, around a week and a half to two weeks, then wrap in clear cheese wrap (from NE cheesemaking supply) and move to cold fridge. Haven't noticed ammonia, just the runnyness.

Offline seemunkee

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 33
  • Cheeses: 3
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 10:00:10 PM »
When you say, letting it set too long after flocculation, do you mean letting the curds sit too long in the kettle before ladling into the molds?  I don't remember what I did, so can't address that.  I do know that I thought it they felt very moist when I removed them from the molds. 

Unfortunately in MD I can't get raw milk.  I would have to make a 4 hour round trip to PA to get some. 


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,681
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 12:40:49 AM »
Hi,

This is slipskin.  The curd near the rind over ripens, which prevents or greatly slows the ripening of the middle.  The rind is very thick as well.  And based upon what I've read here on the form, this is due to too high humidity and overly moist curds.  I've had this happen to greater and lesser extents, with my second to last attempt (my first brie) a complete cheesey water bottle but my last make (a brie in a 20 cm diameter mould) turned out really well. 

Some people recommend just ladelling the curds into the moulds and letting them drain.  However, I would suggest cutting the curds to about 1 inch cubes (2.54 cm cubes) and stirring gently for 20 or 30 minutes to get the curds to expell some whey.  The cubes should shrink up a bit.  Let the curds settle a bit, then drain off most of the why.  Finally, using a slotted spoon, carefully transfer the curds to the mould.  This will help reduce the moisture of the curds, which in turn will help produce a firmer curd and one that is less likely to ripen too fast.  Once you've got a good feel for making cams and brie, you can try direct ladelling, but I think that requires a bit of experience to know what to look for to prevent this sort of thing. 

Then, make sure your curds drain really well, which will take around 24 hours, but you can let them sit longer.  Flip every hour or so early on as well, but after 4 or 5 flips you can just leave them for the rest of the time.  Make sure your curds are draining into a bowl and the curds are not just sitting in the liquid (i.e. put the mould up on a draining mat that is sitting on chop sticks over a bowl).

Next, make sure your cave is around 10 C, maybe as high as 12 but lower is a bit better and more controlled.  The moulds work more slowly in cooler temperatures.  Keep the cheeses in a box, on a draining mat, but keep an eye on the humidity.  Too high and things develop too fast, resulting in, you guessed it, thick skins and running edges.   As your mould grows, pat it down (i.e. just tap it with your fingers).  Once you have coverage, wrap (I just use foil and it seems fine) and put them in the regular fridge (around 4 C usually) and flip each day.  Again, by cooling things down things go more slowly and the outside shouldn't "cook" before the middle is done.

You've got the right things noted though, do things to reduce the moisture in the curd and keep the temperatures down.  These can be a bit finicky, and I'm by no means an expert at this style of cheese, but keep at it and read lots.  Others will chime in with more expert advice, and where we differ, go with them! :)

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline bbracken677

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Dallas, Tx
  • Posts: 1,166
  • Cheeses: 16
  • I love me some cheese!
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 06:47:00 AM »
Seemunkey: May I ask what conditions you are ripening your cams at?

Offline seemunkee

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 33
  • Cheeses: 3
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 07:43:21 AM »
In a cooler with a frozen milk jug, so temps can vary widely.  Especially if I forget to swap it out for a fresh one each day.  I would guess ~55-60F most days.  I put the cheeses in a plastic shoe box with a draining mat under them.  Humididy is equally variable.  After a couple of weeks they go into the beer fridge which is ~45F

Offline bbracken677

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Dallas, Tx
  • Posts: 1,166
  • Cheeses: 16
  • I love me some cheese!
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 02:22:15 PM »
ok...I can tell you that your cams are runny due to the 55-60F temps. Seems that 55-60F temps are a common denominator when it comes to the runny cams.

45F should be ok...a little lower than I prefer (50) but is much better than fridge temps.

Do you keep them in a container to control humidity? I have a flat plastic container that I cut holes in the top to manage the humidity. I keep that at 50F and never actually wrap them during the ripening process. Once ripened fully (like 4 weeks) I can then wrap and move them to the fridge to preserve them a bit longer since that will slow development down quite a bit. They are good for another couple weeks or so in the fridge that way. I am not sure I have tried to save them longer since they tend to get eaten by 2 weeks  ;D

Offline stratocasterdave

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: River Falls, WI
  • Posts: 54
  • Cheeses: 2
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 03:56:53 PM »
How about that skim/cream mixture that you used? I tried that once and had a liqui-cam too.  JeffHamm recomended I try and use whole milk, the clream line stuff.  I did that and it worked for me.  Just an idea.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,681
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2013, 04:08:49 PM »
Yah, I agree with bbracken677.  The 55-60 range probably gets things going too rapidly and the outside ripens so fast the middle never gets a chance (I've forgotten who puts it this way, but it's like putting frozen chicken in a deep fryer.  The outside gets cooked but the middle ends up still being frozen because it cooked too quickly).  Also, the variable temperature and humidty of the ice in the box isn't helping.  You can do it, but you do have to change your ice on schedule and keep a close eye on things.

And if you can find some creamline (non-homogenized) milk that may help too.  If the cream you're adding is high heat pasturized it may contribute to the runnyness. 

These can take a bit of trial and error to finally find what works with your set up, but once you get it working the rewards are worth it.  Keep at it.

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 12:58:37 AM »
Agree with JeffHamm and 677 - this is typical slip skin. Humidity and temperature too high. Cheese not properly drained. Rind growth too fast and agressive traps the moisture in and your geo is having a party turning everything to ammonia. It's very sensitive to temperature. 51°F-55°F is your range. humidity around 92% is good. Don't go above 95% humidity.

Here is something that helped others in on the forum in the past:  Think of this temperature and humidity like frying a piece of chicken on a pan. Too hot: the outside will burn before the inside had a chance to cook. What's your kitchen instinct? Turn down the flame.  Same thing here. Bring it down a few notches until it all cooks well. Your "fire" was just a tad too strong. No big deal..  Try again. Another batch.  You are not too far from getting it right. Camembert is very easy to fabricate but tricky to age!  Turn your focus to your aging environment. It's the key. Make yourself a great cave. You need slight air exchange and reliable temperature control and humidity monitoring.

Offline bbracken677

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Dallas, Tx
  • Posts: 1,166
  • Cheeses: 16
  • I love me some cheese!
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 03:45:48 AM »
How about that skim/cream mixture that you used? I tried that once and had a liqui-cam too.  JeffHamm recomended I try and use whole milk, the clream line stuff.  I did that and it worked for me.  Just an idea.

When I am not using raw milk, I buy skim milk (0% fat) and add cream as needed for the make.  Just have to make sure the cream is not ultra-pasteurized (nor the milk, of course).

Offline seemunkee

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 33
  • Cheeses: 3
  • Default personal text
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 01:30:42 PM »
Thanks all for the replies. 

I keep them in a plastic shoe box when aging to keep from drying out too fast and will prop the lid or snap it shut depending on the amount of humidity needed.  I know that is not the most accurate way, but its my best option for now. My wife has a super sense of smell and complains about the ammonia odor.  She'll be happy to hear there is a solution to the problem.
 
I can get nonhomogenized milk and I'll give it a go this time. 

JeffHamm, I always have the best intentions of changing the ice regularly, but sometimes travel and life in general get in the way.  A larger wine cooler will most likely be in my near future.
I understand what you are saying about it going off too hot. I've been dinged by beer judges for allowing to fast of fermentation in my beers and had to make adjustements. 

If its rainy this weekend and I stuck indoors I'll give it another go. What would be the downside to putting them in the beer fridge to start?  Longer time to develop?  Or is that too cold to keep the mold from starting?

Offline bbracken677

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Dallas, Tx
  • Posts: 1,166
  • Cheeses: 16
  • I love me some cheese!
Re: 2nd Cam - extremly runny
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 09:12:34 PM »
I think your shoebox solution is fine...once you get a cheese cave going it will stabilize and be perfect for you.

Your beer fridge at 45F would be fine temp wise...a tad lower than I prefer but not far off.  I am not sure about the beer critters though. I have no idea what would happen if you had cheese cultures and beer cultures in the same fridge, so to speak. I get cross contamination of molds in my cave since I typically have a blue and sometimes white mold cheeses in with the rest.