Author Topic: Butterkase 1 Fail ?  (Read 1946 times)

Offline Keyser Soze

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Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« on: June 16, 2013, 02:46:33 PM »
Hi All !!

Made my first real cheese, attempted to anyhow, this morning.  Followed Jeff's 2nd Butterkase recipe right down to the rennet part.  Added 1/2 tsp rennet (single strength) waited 40 minutes at 40 c to get what I thought was a clean break.  I'm sure it was not, as what I wound up with was a pot full of really small curd.  It did not sink and I could not pour off the whey without pouring most of it into a cheese clothed collander.

Not sure what I'm going to do about the mold, as it is way too small for this recipe, but I think I'll learn about that some more.  A 2 lb mold does not fit a 2 lb cheese. 

Any clues what I may have done wrong?

I really dislike failure.

Thanks


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Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 06:07:24 PM »
Hi Keyser Soze,

First, butterkase produces a very soft curd.  I've made it 8 or 9 times now, and I continually tweak the make.  I know in one of my more recent makes I've included some LH and used yogurt instead of ST B01, and that produced a stronger curd.

Anyway, without detailed notes, it's hard to say what, if anything, might have gone wrong.  I was using a 750 IMCU strength rennet, you were using a single strength.  What was your floc time?  Did you use the floc method to determine the cut time? 

In my notes, I mentioned that I used a needle point mat when pouring off the whey.  This is because the curds didn't sink for me either.

If you're using pasteurised and homogenised milk, it's quite possible that your curds are breaking up because the milk is pasteurised at a high temperature.  The milk I use probably is heated quite high, and while the curd will hold if cut fairly small, it does break up during stirring if they are cut larger (i.e. 1 inch cubes just don't last for me).  I know if I use a cream  line milk I get a much stronger curd. 

Anyway, did you get a decent looking knit at the end of the day?  Can you post a photo of your cheese once it is out of the press so we can see it?  It sounds to me like you've more or less got a similar result.  Brine it, and wash it with a light brine starting after a week.  Age it out 2 or 3 months (3 is probably better), and that's when you'll know.

If you kept detailed notes, put them here so we can see what you did.  Often, the differences are due to brand of milk, or rennet strength, or gnomes.  I find gnomes are the worst.

For comparison, here's a link to my 2nd Butterkase thread: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7553.0.html

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the end result.  Search the boards, and you'll find a number of different butterkase makes.  Hmmm, maybe I should revisit some of these early versions.

- Jeff
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Offline Keyser Soze

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 05:38:55 PM »
Thanks for the comments Jeff.  The knit was tight and they look just like cheese is supposed to, so I think I may have pulled it off anyhow, but the diferences between Mary's # 5 and the looks of your 1&2 makes made me feel as if I had made a mistake somewhere.
I used p&h milk, 2 gal and 1/2 qt heavy cream, I think they are both not super high heat pasturized, but I'm waiting for a note from the mfg to find out for sure.
As far as the notes go, this is what I have

Heated 2 gal whole milk and 1 pint heavy cream to 35 C. ( 37C  actual)
Added 5 cubes FD and 3/8 tsp dry thermo (NE Cheese pkt) Let rest 5 min and then gently stir in to milk. Check temp 35 C.
Wait 40 minutes to allow for culture to ripen. Maintain 35 C temp covered pot.
Brought temp up to 40 C and added 1/2 tsp CaCl mixed in 1/4 cup water. Stirred in gently. Added animal rennet 1/2 tsp with 1/4 cup water. ( This was package directions, 2x amount in recipe) Stirred gently 2 minutes.
Floc time appx 11 min 10 sec.  3.5 x 11.10= appx 39 minutes.Checked curd for clean break.  Seemed to need more time added 10 minutes.
     (Got a slightly cleaner looking break but I think it was not textbook.  Seemed to have more smaller pasty   looking curd than most of the pictures.)

Cut curds into 1" squares vertically.
Waited 5 minutes and cut curds 1/2" vertical and horizontal.
waited 10 minutes and stirred gently to break up curd a little more. (Did not settle down in pot at all, seemed to disintegrate into  muck)
Let rest 10 minutes, drained 2/3 of whey (and curd muck) into sterile cheesecloth lined collander, drianed the whey out and added curd back to pot.
Added 60 C water to pot to bring up to 42 C ( hit 43 C).
Stirred for 40 minutes, gently up and over slowly.  Stopped for a 2 minute break every 5 minutes (back ache)

Some curd sank at this point after the stirring and before the next bit.

Ladled curd into 2 molds lined with cheese cloth. 1 mold short round 5.5 inch x 3 inch closed bottom, other mold, tall thin  4 inch x 6 inch tall open bottom.

had to wait a long time to fill them, as the curd was so wet.

Pressed short round in press. Appx 1 hour 6kg flip redress, 3 hours flip redress, 10kg 2 hours, remove from mold
Tall thin, 1 hour 5kg flip redress, 3 hours flip redress, 2 hours flip redress. remove from mold.

Soak in water 15 minutes Knit  looks good. texture smooth but firm not too rubbery round of cheese ( both).

Saturated brine solution appx 7 hours. Remove, pat dry, place on mats on counter. 

Tall thin 657 grams , short wide 550 grams


Waiting.


Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 05:57:33 PM »
You know, that sounds much like some of my butterkase makes actually.  I find the curd is very weak, and "mucky" is a good description. I think it will be fine actually.  This should end up as a very mild flavoured cheese.  Post up some photos if you can, and don't forget to let us know how it turns out when you do taste it. 

- Jeff
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 08:15:36 AM »
Often, the differences are due to brand of milk, or rennet strength, or gnomes.  I find gnomes are the worst.
Is that what my problem might be? I keep chasing slippery issues but never considered gnomes. Thanks, Jeff. :)

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Offline Keyser Soze

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »
Jeff,

I hope it sounds just like your first and second makes.  That's what I'm following to make these first cheeses.

I found this forum doing a wide search for Butterkäse after I got back from Germany and my wife was pining for a smoked Gouda with Schinken ( ham) in it, and I got hooked on the idea of making my own.  I still have not found out how to make the gouda with the ham in it, but next week the smokehouse is being built, and two weeks after that, one of these two Butterkäse rounds is going in it.

Took photos last night and will post them as soon as I figure out how to get them out of my camera.

Thanks to all for all the great advice.
Eric

Jeff,  What size cheese mold do you use for that cheese. It seems it's as large as a dinner plate.

Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 01:37:41 PM »
Hi,

I use a 6.25" diameter tomme mould for most of these (though 1 I did in a 20 cm diameter 1/2 brie mould).  This is for a 10-11 litre make, and results in a cheese (after aging) of just over a kilo.

By "sounds like my makes", I meant the outcome, as you mentioned you were using some of my previous make notes as a guide.  So, I don't think it sounds like a failure to me.  Good luck, and do include some photos of the cheese (click the + on the attachments and other options tag below and that's where you can attach photos).

- Jeff
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Offline Keyser Soze

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 10:11:22 PM »
Sorry, I didn't quite get that. Too many late nights and early mornings. :)  I did figure out how to post some photos, and a couple additional notes though, and I am relieved to see the cheeses are looking better every day.  Waiting to dry out a little more (60 hours out of the brine so far).

I did weigh them, the small and tall one (4.25" x2.5") started at 647 grams and is now 577 gr and short and wide one(5.5" x 1.6") was 550 gr and is now 492 gr.  Both are still damp on the bottom after a 12 hour stay on the mat, so I'm going to wait till Saturday ( 6 days) to think about vac bagging.  Coldest non refrigerated part of the house is my work shop, and it is at 60 F.  Working on a cave refrigerator, but need some more time to finance it.


Anyhow, here's the pics I hope. !

Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 12:49:05 AM »
Those look good, nice knit.  They can take awhile to dry, as the soft curd holds a lot of whey and they sort of baste themselves for a bit.  If you are going to vac bag them, keep a close eye on them as they may leak more moisture into the bag.  If you can, I would avoid vac sealing them for a while yet.  My own experience is that sealing, either in bags or wax, is probably best held off until at least a month, or even two, of aging au natural.  If you have some ripening boxes (i.e. plastic boxes with lids that you can prop open), these will keep the local humidity up, so they dry out slow enough to avoid cracking, but also so they dry out enough so they won't leak whey!  Still, I know others have been able to wax or bag quite young and have no problems, so there's a lot of variation due to local conditions. 

Anyway, however you choose to go, age these out at the very least two months, but if you can, go for three with the thinner of them and four for the larger/thicker.  If you are in need of cheese before then, give caerphilly a try.  That is good to eat in three weeks, so you could have a few of those eaten by the time these ripen. 

Well done on what looks like a successful make.  Oh, while I think of it, I have made butterkase using yogurt as well, and those makes have had firmer curds (I think those makes also added LH and Strep.Therm. as well as the flora danica and buttermilk - bit of a kitchen sink of mix really).  Check my 5th through 7th makes.

Hmmm, now I realise I've not made this in awhile.  Maybe this will be my next make?  Too many cheeses, so little ... room in the cheese fridge!

- Jeff
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Offline Keyser Soze

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »
Thanks for the advice !  I'm going to put them in a small tub tonight (wife wants all experiments off the counter for the weekend) after I sanitize it.  I had my last cheese experiment in it and it was a lot green.

I meant to ask, I read somewhere the ice cube to dry ratio for cultures.  I used ice cubes for the FD but the thermo ones never set. ( Too high on the temp I guess).  So I used the thermo rehydrated. I made the cultures from a small sachet in a canning jar, buttermilk, FD and a basic Meso., but I had to use the dry thermo.

Do you think 60 F ( 15.5 C ) is cool enough, or do I really need to get on the fridge thing fast?

Thanks again for the help !  I am so hooked on this I may give up the Beer making, Sausage making, cutting the lawn !!


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Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 01:23:37 PM »
Hi,

What do you mean by the thermo ones never set?  They never froze?  Or the culture didn't thicken?  I can't see it not freezing, so if it didn't thicken it may have been too cool, rather than too warm.  I usually put my thermo milk (when making cubes) in the hot water cupboard and leave it on the cylinder for 12-24 hours.  It should curdle the milk by then.

And, 15.5 should be ok for awhile.  A bit on the warm side (10-12 would be better), so I wouldn't put too much of a delay on the fridge but you don't need to get it today if it's not convenient.  Tomorrow should be fine! :)

Cheese goes too well with beer and sausages, so I think you've made the correct choice.

- Jeff
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 01:38:19 PM »
I meant to ask, I read somewhere the ice cube to dry ratio for cultures.
Not sure if this is what you were seeking.

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Offline JeffHamm

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 03:26:51 PM »
I'm thinking if you add close to 200 ml of ice cubes to a 10 L make, then you would not also include a ripening time.  I generally toss 2 to 3 ice cubes in, and ripen various amounts of time.  I know the one time I added around 7 ice cubes and also let it ripen, the cheese came out over acidified and I think it was too much culture.

What are your thoughts on that Boofer?

- Jeff
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2013, 02:00:15 AM »
Going by the attached pdf, my typical make has been 4 gallons milk with 8 cubes/8 ounces at 1.5%. This has worked well for me. If I do a 3 gallon recipe, I have stepped the number of cubes down to 6. Two gallons equals 4 cubes. Seems to work. In one 3 gallon make I know I used 3 cubes of mesophilic and 3 cubes of thermophilic.

Translating that into metric, with a 10 liter make I'd probably use 141.9 ml @ 1.5%. For my ice trays, that equals 4.8 ounces or 5 cubes (1 ounce each).

Regardless what level of culture I put into the make, I would still watch for a .1 delta that would tell me the culture is alive & well and getting to work on time. ;)

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Offline Keyser Soze

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Re: Butterkase 1 Fail ?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 05:56:16 PM »
When I say not set,  I meant it was too liquid.  The mixture never thickened, even though I had the mason jar in a warm water bath for 9-10 of the 24 hours I used to make it.  Maybe it was too cool, but I thought I followed the directions in the cheese book and on the packet correctly.  I did not wind up keeping it because I did not want to experiment untill I had some kind of sucess first, I wasn't too sure what to look for.

The mason jars were sterilized, the milk heated and the culture added to the cooled milk, and then in the case of the thermo, heated to the correct temp according to the guide I was using, so I must have done something to make it not thicken.  I'll try it again, but in the meanwhile, I have meso, FD and Buttermilk ice cubes and no room left in the freezer.

NY weather turned really warm this weekend, so I had to move it to a fridge.  I emptied the thing of beer, and turned it up as warm as it will go for my cheese.  I hope it's not too cold, but it went from 58 F to 68 F in the basement in two days.  Way too hot. 

Also, when I put it in the box with the cover ( I sanitized it first and put it on a mat in the box) slightly askew, it developed mold in 2 days time.  Wiped with vinegar, it came back two days later.  Too damp?  Took the cover off the box  in the fridge and will see if the dry air in there knocks back the mold.  Did not have any till then.

I'll keep you posted on that part too.

Boofer-  Thanks, that is what I was looking for.  ummmmm--  Sorry, what is .1 delta?