Author Topic: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash  (Read 4211 times)

Spellogue

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Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« on: August 04, 2013, 04:21:31 PM »
I'm thinking about attempting my first Gouda tonight.  i'll be using raw goat milk.  I plan to age it perhaps 6 months if I can stand the wait.  It seems that kazu is the go-to culture for Gouda, but I don't have any.  I'm wondering which starter or combination I should use from my stash, or if I should choose a different style of cheese to make.

I have on hand:

- M100
- Aroma B
- TA61
- a tiny packet of 3 year old "buttermilk" starter from a kit.
- Yogurt

Any suggestions?

JeffHamm

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 06:38:01 PM »
I believe Flora Danica is the one I've often seen recommended for gouda, and I think Aroma B and FD are pretty much the same, so I would go for that.  Buttermilk is similar to FD as well, but I wouldn't try that culture unless you know it is still working, given its age.  Put a small bit in warm pasturized milk and let it sit over night to see if it is working.

- Jeff

Offline Schnecken Slayer

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 08:59:49 PM »
I have used Flora Danica for my last three Gouda makes and the results have been pretty good.
-Bill
One day I will add something here...

Spellogue

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 11:56:12 PM »
Aroma B and Flora Danica do contain the same bacterial strains listed in the same order, but I don't know if the proportions are the same.  So yes, they're basically interchangeable.  It is the same thing as MM100 with the addition of Leuconostoc Mesensteroides.  Apparently that is what gives cheese a buttery flavor. 

Kazu, on the other hand, is MM100 with lactobacillus Helveticus.  It's supposed to add a nuttiness to the cheese.  Since its a thermophile, I suppose it would be a stabilizer too. 

I like the idea of a buttery Gouda, so the Aroma B will go into the pot.  I wonder if I should add a pinch of the TA61 (Streptococcus thermophilus) to firm the cheese up a bit.  I'll be pressing under whey in the pot with free weights (no proper press yet, I plan to build a rudimentary one soon) so I probably won't be able to press at more than 20 lbs.

I mentioning the buttermilk culture tongue in cheek, but that is a good idea on testing it in a sample batch. 

What's the consensus minimum aging on a Gouda?  I don't know that I can contain myself for 4 months on this one.

JeffHamm

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 06:58:27 AM »
I've never added Strep.Therm. to my gouda's, and typically use FD, and they've been fine.  I've aged a few out to well over a year, though, as I quite like aged gouda.  I would recommend aging it out to 3 months though, though I know some people will cut at two.  Personally, I see no reason to go through all the effort of making a cheese, aging it out a couple of months, only to cut it too soon.  Make a caerphilly and eat that while waiting.  Lancashire is one that is also ready in about two months, and I've had good luck with that as well (Mrs KK has a make procedure that I think Sailor originally posted?  I've followed that a few times, as have others - makes a good cheese).  Anyway, I think gouda is supposed to really improve around the 6 month mark, but that's if you're getting into stretching these out.  Too young, though, and you'll miss out on the goodness that is your cheese.  Patience, very important in this hobby. 

- Jeff

george

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 09:58:10 AM »
For what it's worth, I use MM100 on all my goudas - comes out yummy.  I generally cut at 3 months, although sometimes I'm a week or two late on that (milder creamy cheeses are my faves) - but never before.  It doesn't all get eaten right away (quarter and re-vac the quarters) - as it happens I'm working on a piece that accidentally got aged a year, and if I ignore the slight bitterness at the end, it's still pretty good.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 01:18:25 PM »
What's the consensus minimum aging on a Gouda?  I don't know that I can contain myself for 4 months on this one.
Here's an example for you. :)

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Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

linuxboy

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 01:27:53 PM »
Quote
Aroma B and Flora Danica do contain the same bacterial strains listed in the same order,
Not strains, species.
Quote
but I don't know if the proportions are the same.
Comparable, yes.
Quote
It's supposed to add a nuttiness to the cheese.  Since its a thermophile, I suppose it would be a stabilizer too. 
What does stabilizer mean? LH in this case is used as a flavor adjunct.

The classic gouda starter is something from the LD blend. Meaning something meso that also produces some gas and diacetyl.

jwalker

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 01:48:02 PM »
 

What's the consensus minimum aging on a Gouda?  I don't know that I can contain myself for 4 months on this one.

I have made about 8 Goudas now , opened one at four months or so , has the Gouda flavour developing , but needs more time.

I think Gouda , like a good Cheddar should really be aged for one year or more , it's hard waiting that long , but I do like Jeff suggests now , making blues and Caerphillys to eat while waiting.

I age all my wine for a year at least , some are three years old or better now , so I figure , why not do the same with cheese , you'll be happier in the long run.

Patience Grasshopper............................... ;D

Spellogue

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »
Thanks to all of you for the comments.  I'll be able to incorporate all of this advice since my make has to wait until tonight or tomorrow.  Too many chores and errands used up the day yesterday.

Quote
It's supposed to add a nuttiness to the cheese.  Since its a thermophile, I suppose it would be a stabilizer too. 
What does stabilizer mean? LH in this case is used as a flavor adjunct.

The classic gouda starter is something from the LD blend. Meaning something meso that also produces some gas and diacetyl.
[/quote]

I was under the impression that inclusion of a thermophilic culture would carry acidification further, slowly at lower temperature, once the mesophiles were done with their job, perhaps making for more continuity and structure within the cheese.  I suppose if this is the case, it would be more apparent in a softer cheese.  I guess that's unnecessary or ineffective in a harder cheese,  especially in a washed curd.  I may be way off the mark here.

I'll assume the TA61 won't add any particularly desireable flavor to the cheese, and doesn't serve any other positive effect, so I'll leave it out.   

So Boofer, you got good reviews on your Roasted Garlic Gouda while it's still young.  That's encouraging to know.  I'll feel confident cutting into mine at 4 months if I need to tap into it for the holidays.  Perhaps I'll make anothern one very soon to age longer.  It would be a nice cheese for a February afternoon.  I don't see how I could possibly wait a whole year without a third cheese.   If only had more than one tomme mold I'd make two wheels in this batch. 

When our little goat herd's production begins to flag my eye turns toward making more storage cheeses at the expense of my precious bloomies.  Alas, that point is ariving early this year.  I keep promising  myself I'll plan my make schedule better next season.   

I'm enjoying learinng about Goudas and looking forward to eating more of them.  At this point I know more about Dutch beer than Dutch cheese, but that's changing quickly.   I suspect they go together like sunshine and happiness though.

   

linuxboy

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 08:24:01 PM »
Quote
I was under the impression that inclusion of a thermophilic culture
Which thermo? They species are all different, and then there's strain specificity.
Quote
would carry acidification further, slowly at lower temperature, once the mesophiles were done with their job,
What do you mean? Post acidification? Are you saying you want an acid drop after the 5.5 pH target at brine and 5.2 pH post brine? I don't get what you're trying to say.
Quote
perhaps making for more continuity and structure within the cheese.
Cheese structure, the calcium backbone, is determined in large part by the 1) pre-rennet casein breakdown, meaning rennet pH and 2) Drain pH. So by the time you get to post acidification, all of that is done.

Spellogue

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 11:11:20 AM »
Quote
I was under the impression that inclusion of a thermophilic culture
Which thermo? They species are all different, and then there's strain specificity.
Quote
would carry acidification further, slowly at lower temperature, once the mesophiles were done with their job,
What do you mean? Post acidification? Are you saying you want an acid drop after the 5.5 pH target at brine and 5.2 pH post brine? I don't get what you're trying to say.
Quote
perhaps making for more continuity and structure within the cheese.
Cheese structure, the calcium backbone, is determined in large part by the 1) pre-rennet casein breakdown, meaning rennet pH and 2) Drain pH. So by the time you get to post acidification, all of that is done.

I thought continued bacterial action by any thermo species after slowdown of a meso species was the point of combining the two cultures.  I assumed that would include some further acidification.  I stand corrected.

linuxboy

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 02:08:43 PM »
It depends, not all thermos are the same. thermo vs meso is such a broad set of terms. If you're stabilizing with strep for paste, that's different than using a bacillus adjunct for more flavor. It's not only specific to bacterial species, but also to strain.

Spellogue

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 09:11:03 PM »
Amidst another crazy day I finally started this make today.  I'll create  another thread with the details later. 

LB, I found your WaCheese Gouda recipe once I'd already started into it.  With a quick adjustment, I am taking your advice of combining my Aroma B with MM100, albeit in different proportions, rather than using the FD type alone.  I wonder though why you recommend that.  What benefit does it bring to the cheese?

linuxboy

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Re: Choosing a Gouda starter from the stash
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 10:56:41 PM »
Slightly better acidification profile in my experience, and slightly better flavor and aroma.