Help on Brie rind please - Cheese novice

[Cheesey Grin]

I have been having a go at Creme fraiche Brie p134 of Mary Karlin's - Artisan cheesemaking at Home.
All seemed to be going well until inspection on day 13.

The rind which had already developed as a very crinkled appearance, which I was not too sure was right  (I was expecting the smooth, white fluffy, rind like you see on a shop Brie), now has fluorescent green patches on it  and a smell which didn't smell very good.
I attach photos. Please note that the fluorescent green on the rind has not come out well on the photo. It looks yellow on the photo but in reality is very bright fluorescent green.

As the batch had made one small 5 inch cheese and another bigger 8 inch cheese I decided to sacrifice  and cut the smaller one open, to see what was happening inside and to take photos for advice from some experienced cheese makers.

The cheeses have each been in their own ripening box in a wine fridge cheese cave where I have been managing to maintain the temperature and humidity fairly well. Despite being in separate ripening boxes both cheeses have the same appearance.

I would be really appreciative of advice from any experienced cheese makers. I am suspicious that I have got some contamination growing? In theory the cheeses still have another 4 weeks to go in the cave and then another 4 to 7 weeks moved into a refrigerator.

[Boofer]

Wow, there's a new kid rind on the block! Sign up here!

The crinkled rind is from your draining mat which is too open format. Smaller holes, please. That open format and subsequently crumpled, crinkly rind is an open invitation to whatever wants a taste of some young Brie. A smaller weave draining mat will help create that smooth rind you seek and help to hold off invading airborne molds, yeasts, and bacteria.

Why did you cut it at 13 days? I know, curiosity.

I observe that just under the crinkly rind looks to be possible slip-skin. You might want to check on your temperature & humidity levels in your cave. It is supposed to be tight from the rind to the paste.

-Boofer-

[Cheesey Grin]

Thanks so much for your response.

I cut it because I thought the strange colour was so wrong looking and smelling that it was probably a write-off and so at least by cutting it I would gain more information and a photo of what had gone wrong to post on the forum for advice.

I take on board your comments on my cheese mat being not fine enough - that is useful and I will use this information next time, however, the same wrinkled pattern formed on the sides of the cheese where it had not been against a mat at all - how can this be explained?

The info on the slip skin is helpful - presumably too warm and or too humid? At least I would not have had this useful feedback if I had not cut the cheese and posted on this forum for you to comment, instead of just binning it.

As I said there is another from the same batch an 8 inch one which looks the same. Is it worth persevering with it, due to the fluorescent green patches and dodgy smell (and also slip skin!) or is it condemned as inedible and consigned to the dustbin!?

Thanks for your help.

[Spellogue]

I can't be certain from looking at the photos, but geotrocum candidum often will turn up a brainy looking rind.  Was your recipe perhaps geo heavy or your PC weak/old?  The patterning on your cheese rind  seems more uniform and perpendicular/grid-like than I'm used to seeing for a geo rind, not quite so wormlike, brain-crevassed. Upon looking at a close-up the bumpiness seems similar to a straight geo rind on a high moisture goat cheese like Crottin though.

Just a thought,

[Tiarella]

I agree with Spellogue that ot looks like a Geo rind.  Ummm, is the inner paste really pink or is that a photo illusion?  I wish I could help you with your concern about the green mold but I can't.  have you made any blue cheeses that might have cross-contaminated?  I'm not worried about any slip skin issues but the smell description reminds me of a Chaource batch I did that looked really great but smelled awful.  never did figure out what that was.  Does it smell like ammonia?  Or just some horrid smell you can't name? 

It does seem like Geo can out compete PC of it's warmer and more humid.  I think having the temp cooler would help the PC from what I've read but hopefully an expert will chime in here.   

[mjr522]

More feedback from the peanut gallery:

Looks like Geo, to me, too.  I once made some camemberts that were all wrinkly and smelled funky.  The thread is entertaining as well as educational...

Makes me want to make some more cams.

[Cheesey Grin]

Firstly I want to thank you all for your help.  All the comments are helpful as it is a steep learning curve for a begginer.

I am cheesing in isolation here in my corner of Yorkshire, UK, and don't know anyone who has any cheese making experience so it is very supportive to have such a link to your wealth of experience.

Answering a few questions which have come up in your posts.
The cheese middle does not in reality have any pink hue to it, it is a healthy looking creamy colour, any pinkyness must just be the camera not giving a true picture.
The smell has a bit of an ammonia tinge, but in mostly an unpleasant 'don't think that can be right' nasty smell.
The PC might be under suspicion of not being fresh enough.

I have had a blue cheese going too - which I am pleased to say is a big sucess (a little too dried out but still very yummy to eat, I think next time it needs higher humidity, and its holes next time need to be more in size and quantity - but that is a whole other topic!) but the green staining on the brie is nothing like Penicillium Roqufortii, it is a yellow/green fluorescent sheen, in patches.  On another thread I found, using the search facility, someone mentioned fusilium or something as a contaminant looking similar?

I think I am probably being a bit too ambitious trying such a challenging cheese this early in my cheese career! But up to now everything has been a sucess and so I was lulled into a false sense of confidence and being a 'stinky' cheese lover you can only eat so much cottage cheese before you NEED to go for some character  built cheese!

I am looking forward to reading through some of the older threads, especially those some of you have pointed me at, which look very helpful, interesting and educational, to help me improve my knowledge and understanding of the art. It is quite tricky as a beginner to know which elements of the process are critical and which can have a bit of tolerance. I have already 'broken' 2 hygrometers which I don't think could cope with the high humidity! which seems a bit daft as that is their raison d'etre!

I hope there are not too many 'lost in translation' issues for you US guys with my English English! I have to admit some of the stuff I am reading on the forums goes over my head rather - 'what's that all about'  - as I think they must be Americanisms?!  (Something about violins left me totally bemused?!)

So back to the brie.  The remaining 8 inch one is certainly getting worse not better, and so I think it is probably a write-off. But it is encouraging to read in one of the posts I am directed to in your replies that someone says you need to have a few goes at a cam (presumably camembert) before you get the hang. So next cheese will probably be something a little less challenging, but I will have another go later at another brie as it is a favourite.

[Cheesey Grin]

Ha, read it again and think I have worked out what the violins bit is all about! ( due to the fact that the penny dropped what 'nekkie' must mean!)
Thanks to Mike Richards and Camembert #1.

[Tiarella]

Hey there, you'll get the knack of Brie sometime.  It's really not a difficult cheese......not sure what happened with this batch but perhaps try a plain Brie and see how that does.  Skip the creme fraiche idea and follow a simple recipe.  Maybe dial down your fridge to a slightly cooler temp such as 50 degrees F.     not sure what that is in celsius.  If you want more help.....try posting your notes about how the make procedure went.  In fact, do make sure you take good notes for situations such as this.  i love that part of the forum support.  I can post notes and someone is usually able to tell me where I went wrong.  For you....I wonder whether it's going to be worth doing a really good scrub down of all your cheese making pots and a sanitizing wipe of your wine fridge to help minimize that being the issue.  Then it seems like an issue of controlling ripening temps.  Oh and, no one seems to say that once the PC starts to grow you need to pat it down rather than let it go rampant.  That was something I had to learn from forum members.  Keep trying.  Brie is a good easy cheese.  Check out the info here and then see if you feel ready to try again.  http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com/search/label/Brie

Note, some recipes don't use the Geo and although some will sneer at the idea of Brie without Geo, it will still be a yummy cheese and a confidence builder since the rind management is a bit easier with less competition in my humble opinion.

[Cheesey Grin]

Thanks for that Tiarella, I was feeling a bit discouraged and that has put me back on track  .
I hadn't really wanted to do such a complicated brie recipe but as I only had books to work from at that point the first book I got - making your own cheese - Paul Peacock (an English guy I actually have met personally) disappointed when I realised it didn't have a brie recipe, so I bought the Artisan one as it looked as if it would have some 'interesting' cheeses, and then that recipe was the only brie there that was appropriate. I only found this forum when I came looking for help when it started to look wrong. I can see going forward I will be using this site for lots of info and will use recipes recommended here and get some helpful info, but I haven't got the hang of the site yet to know where to look for the advice I will find useful is stored. I will explore in time.
Can you point me to the area you suggest you love "posting notes on how the make procedure went"?
Your pointers are very useful, you can't get 'experience' from a book and like you say with the 'patting' advice you are totally in the dark unless someone tells you. I already see from the http link you sent me that I have my cheese paper on my blue cheese 'inside out!' it seems obvious now that the dull side should be inside presumably so moisture doesn't collect next to the cheese but I needed it pointing out!

Your pointers are particularly helpful as you suggest positive action of what I should do next time. Very constructive for me.
I am using Milton solution to sterilise everything (do you have this in US? - it is sold to sterilise babies bottles amongst other uses). What/how do you use  as sanitiser?

I am a bit frustrated with my wine fridge! It has two compartments one has a 5 to 10 Celsius range (41 to 50 f) and the other 10 to 18C ( 50 to 64.5f) so I have both set to 10 (50) but most of the time it only achieves 8 ( 46.5) in the colder side or 11/12 (52/53.5) in the warmer which is a bit annoying when I want 10!(50)

How do you get on in US with the cost of stuff? I am not focusing too much on that side at the moment as I am just starting out and it is all a learning curve, but I am rather surprised that the PC and other ingredients are so expensive, have a limited shelf life and don't seem to have much in the packet to do many batches of cheese.  There must be a point where it seems a bit too crazily expensive compared to the yield you get at the end.

Anyway, I will certainly try a brie again before too long. Next cheese is probably going to be a Wensleydale (our local regional cheese here) which is my hubby's favourite so I have promised him to try to do some for Christmas.

Thanks again for your help.

[Tiarella]

I'm glad my post got you past some discouragement.  Let me see if I can answer sone of your questions.

First, post your make notes whenever and wherever you are asking for help because that gives folks the info to respond.

Second, I think you said you used Mary Karlin's book.  I have that and have also been disappointed. Someone pointed out that somewhere online is a document with all her corrections of the mistakes in her book.  I made a wine soaked cheese and she had NO salt in the recipe.  it was too bland to eat which was very disappointing.

Your wine fridge temps will likely work out fine.  keep the bloomie rinds in the cooler side.  Oh, and make sure you've salted your bloomies appropriately because I think I've read that it will help the PC/Geo balance.  Your warmer side will be fine for aging out most cheeses.

As for cost....my milk is from my own goats so although it's completely magical thinking (since I'm rather ignoring the cost of feed, all my hours, cost of barn, fencing, property taxes involved) I think of it as "free".  Silly I know but it's working for me.   . For cost of cultures....it doesn't seem like a lot.  The expiration dates are more about warranty claims from commercial dairies one seller told me.  They don't actually "expire" although it not stored well once opened they won't last well.  you can make mother cultures to save money and production time and Sailor wrote the definitive post with photos on that.  Someone else will point the way if you can't find it but it's likely on the board about cultures or ingredients.....don't remember name of board and I'm too lazy to look it up during my morning tea here.  IF you can find a seller who will cheaply sell you expired cultures you can save a bundle that way.  You can't mother culture rind cultures like PC, etc.  I add my PC to the make, by the way, because my sprayer would always clog.

Do try Caerphilly cheese since it's such an easy one with good tutorials on several sites and copious threads on this forum.  Member Jeff Hamm has done a bunch of recipe tweaking and posted very good notes on that.  The Little Green Cheese site also has good info on that one.

I can't help you with sanitizing info since I haven't ever done it.  Follow directions I guess.

  keep on cheesing!   

[Boofer]

How do you get on in US with the cost of stuff? I am not focusing too much on that side at the moment as I am just starting out and it is all a learning curve, but I am rather surprised that the PC and other ingredients are so expensive, have a limited shelf life and don't seem to have much in the packet to do many batches of cheese.  There must be a point where it seems a bit too crazily expensive compared to the yield you get at the end.

Don't be discouraged. We're all learning here and making mistakes. Hopefully all of our cheeses get better as we move along.

Some cultures can be acquired by purchasing commercial cheeses: Penicillium candidum (PC) from a Cam or Brie and Penicillium roqueforti (PR) from a particular blue that you like. Jeff Hamm, for one, has "borrowed" cultures like this in his previous makes. I have snatched up PR from a Blue Castello somewhere back in time.

-Boofer-

[High Altitude]

Tiarella (and anyone else wanting to share)-  what is your fave cheesebook?  I only have Mary Karlin's and have had success with most all of the 20+ I've made just this year from that book.  I did go online to get the book corrections, and painstakingly entered them in the book, but so far so good.  (Have had some issues with cheddar-types not knitting well as she doesn't call for much weight compared to what I have noticed everyone else is using weight-wise.)

I really want to get another book or two, but am tossed on which "cheese bibles" to get!  Opinions, experiences and thoughts appreciated by anyone.  Thanks!

[Cheesey Grin]

Just catching up with all your supportive posts.

I have just had a quick browse through the 'failures' thread (thanks Boofer) and it cheered me up, in fact I was rolling around laughing  - there are some real funnies there - squify ones, smashed ones, lopsided misshapes,  ones that got chucked down the sink before they even had a chance! Very good to know I am not on my own.
Also from a few boards I have browsed I can see that I don't need to be so anxious about getting everything absolutely exact, everyone has the same problems of meeting the criteria that I have and just does their best. It is comforting to know you are not all scrubbing your cheese caves out every week and achieving 100% temperature levels etc.

I have had a bit of time to start to explore the site more and I can see it is going to be very useful and lots of questions I was tempted to want to put here are answered in all the appropriate boards, which is good, as I can see how well it works organising topics so the same questions don't get asked over and over.
I shall be spending a lot of time reading through and getting lots of rewarding information.

I shall also be following up Boofer's comment
Some cultures can be acquired by purchasing commercial cheeses: Penicillium candidum (PC) from a Cam or Brie and Penicillium roqueforti (PR) from a particular blue that you like. Jeff Hamm, for one, has "borrowed" cultures like this in his previous makes. I have snatched up PR from a Blue Castello somewhere back in time.
to see how that is done as it sounds very interesting. I have got the hang of making a mother culture and that is fairly cheap to buy as you say but it is the Penicillium roquefortii and Penicillium candidum which was rather alarmingly expensive and not suitable to propagate.

I am off to find the book corrections too for the Mary Karlin book, but I think I will be using a lot of the recommended recipes on this site as a priority.

Thanks again

[margaretsmall]

I'm envious of your rind, I've been making crottins in the hope of getting that great wrinkled look, without any success at all!

Milton, I did start using it, but now just boil everything I'm intending to use in the milk vat before I start.

Re books, I think Caldwells book is excellent, good explanations of the process etc. her recipes are generic, unlike a book you will see quoted here often, 200 Easy Homemade Cheeses, which has indeed 200 different recipes, many of which are really the same as each other, just different names. Karlin does have some typos so best to check with another source, but its a lovely book all the same.

Yes, the failures.... I've had my share (the famous blue incident for example)
Best wishes
Margaret