Author Topic: Emmental schmier/rind question  (Read 1238 times)

Offline Kirkbybil

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Emmental schmier/rind question
« on: September 21, 2013, 05:32:39 AM »
Hi,

I posted an earlier question about whether I should/could  keep  my pair of 2lb Emmentals in a ripening container during the warm phase but no-one replied  :(

So I went ahead and did it anyway!  Pix below.

The cheese is now between 70-80F at 70-90RH and sweating fat, which I think is correct?

I have kept up washing every day and turning but the cheese has quite a soft rind. 

Is this all normal, I'm assuming the wet wash stops the rind from hardening?

(It also seems to be bulging after only 2 days warmth as you might see in the pic?)

Should I keep it in the container, keep washing every day and keep turning every day?

The make was perfect so I don't want to kill it at this stage!

Thanks everybody.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:21:10 AM by Kirkbybil »


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Online H-K-J

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 11:21:56 AM »
Keep it in the ripening container, I did that with mine I put the container inside 2 paper sacks on top of my fridge for three weeks.
Of course I also washed it with a wine brine as per Alps recomendations.
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Offline Kirkbybil

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 12:09:05 PM »
Thanks, - did you wash it every day with the wine brine?

That's what I'm using, smells great but, as I said, the rind is soft underneath the sticky shmier, is this ok or should it be hard underneath?

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 01:36:58 PM »
Thanks, - did you wash it every day with the wine brine?
the rind is soft underneath the sticky shmier, is this ok or should it be hard underneath?
I washed the top and sides next day I flip and wash the bottom (now the top) and sides, then I skipped a day (or two) and then went through the same process, during my warm cycle.
mine was soft also, it will get firmer as you go along, when you put it in your cave for ageing it should only need brushing and an occasional wash to get rid of unwanted molds.
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Offline Kirkbybil

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 02:16:38 PM »
Thanks!


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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2013, 07:04:55 PM »
hello,
sorry for not writing sooner,

when the cheese goes to the warm phase, it should have already been washed for a week or two. so you should have a good rind already. so as hkj says, you need only wash it off a few times a week, maybe even twice. this could also just be salt brine with no wine so maintain moisture.

some in the emmental even just wipe with a cloth and rely just on the fat for moistening at this stage.
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Offline tnbquilt

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 05:39:50 PM »
I washed my last cheese everyday while it was in the warm phase, and it stayed real soft. Al states that by it got to that stage it should have been a couple of weeks old and therefore not washed everyday. I agree with him, because the rind was too soft. The rind has to have a specific amount of toughness to it for it the hole formation.
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Offline High Altitude

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 11:11:58 AM »
My 2 lb Emmental has been in the warm phase for a week now, but develops molds every day (despite my daily washings with brine and vinegar brine).  I did not wash it during the first 2 weeks in the cheese fridge however (so I messed up from the start I suppose). 

So, I did a good vinegar brine wash, let it dry a bit, and have now coated it in mold-inhibiting cream wax.  It has not let out any fat yet (which I know helps keep it supple) and I am afraid with the regular washings that it is going to develop a tough thick rind - as has happened to some of my Jarlsbergs in the past.  So I am experimenting with this one to see if I can get keep a nice thin, mold-free rind.

If it starts to seep fat, develops molds under the cream wax, or starts to expand (hopefully!), I will remove the wax and just keep up with brine washes to keep molds at bay.   

I am envious of those of you who are able to successfully develop and maintain schmiers....I'm just not there yet  :(.
Have some (homemade) wine with that cheese!

Offline jwalker

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »

If it starts to seep fat, develops molds under the cream wax, or starts to expand (hopefully!), I will remove the wax and just keep up with brine washes to keep molds at bay.   

I am envious of those of you who are able to successfully develop and maintain schmiers....I'm just not there yet  :(.

I have not been able to get a good shmier going either , my rinds always seem to get too soft and start coming off with the wash.

You will probably get some mold on the outside of the cream coating , I always do , don't worry about it , on mine it never seems to get underneath at the cheese , just on the outside , just wipe it off and you're good.

How many coats did you put on ?
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Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 08:55:11 PM »
You are getting soft rinds because you haven't dried it properly before washing and now you have a thick boundary layer of wild yeasts.  Unfortunately if you try to firm off the rind now  by refrigeration you'll interupt the gas producing phase by being off the correct pH path.  The best you can do is keep them in lower humidity (no ripening box), give them a descent vinegar wash and then rub with coarse salt.  Wipe the salt off after grinding it into the rind.  You want to remove moisture from the rind but try to keep the salt migration into the paste as low as possible, otehrwise you'll get an oversalted cheese.  After a few days you should have a nice firm rind that you can start washing again.  Washing shouldn't be everyday.  It's a cascade.  You start off with frequent washes and and then taper them off as the correct rind forms.

Good luck.


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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 09:09:38 PM »
You are getting soft rinds because you haven't dried it properly before washing and now you have a thick boundary layer of wild yeasts.  Unfortunately if you try to firm off the rind now  by refrigeration you'll interupt the gas producing phase by being off the correct pH path.  The best you can do is keep them in lower humidity (no ripening box), give them a descent vinegar wash and then rub with coarse salt.  Wipe the salt off after grinding it into the rind.  You want to remove moisture from the rind but try to keep the salt migr instruction  into the paste as low as possible, otehrwise you'll get an oversalted cheese.  After a few days you should have a nice firm rind that you can start washing again.  Washing shouldn't be everyday.  It's a cascade.  You start off with frequent washes and and then taper them off as the correct rind forms.

Good luck.

Excellently said 8) great post!! ;D Love it when someone with knowledge Throws an informational and well thought post in :)
A cheese for your help and information
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 10:18:40 AM »
To reiterate what Francois says,

When we wash our cheeses, we have a board we place them on to get washed. We will take a cheese and place it on this board, having flipped it over in the process. We wash only the top and sides, leaving the side that had been washed the previous day untouched so it can dry out.

This is often an afternoon activity. Before this, first thing in the morning, the previous day's cheese is removed from the brine and put on this board to dry out. It doesn't get washed that first day -because it has been soaking in brine.

So Francois is right, you need to let it air out some. BUT, after the washing starts it had better stay wet or it will mold.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2013, 12:06:39 PM »
To add one more point. Schmiers have succession of flora that are very exact and require rather technical precision. It goes like this
- Yeasts (generally candida, debromyces, kluyveromyces, geotricum, and actually a bacterium, staph) settle and eat up surface lactic acid to deacidify the surface. Your wash at 3% keeps them a little bit in check. Rind at this time needs to have a moderately high aW, somewhere in the mid .90s. Not super high, you need a little dryness. Humidity needs to be lower, 60-70%, temp needs to be somewhat high, 55ish. This is the haloir phase of your schmier development. If you go directly to cave with a higher humidity, it's not the end of the world.
- After you have surface deacidification, the rind itself should maintain moderately high aW, same around low .90s. And the wash will introduce the corynebacteria (arthrobacter, b linens, staph xylosus, etc). Surface pH needs to be 5.6 or higher (5.8 usually target). This needs to happen 48-72 hours after brining. And humidity should be fairly high, low 90s, with a temp around 52F. The frequent washing helps to spread bacteria and really establish it on the rind. Because rind aW is a bit lower than the beginning, the yeasts tend to get incorporated into the polysaccharide and casein schmier matrix, creating a kind of "skin". Managing this skin is what you're after with the successive washes.
- Afterward, with regular washing to establish this skin, you go to maintenance mode just to keep it all alive and going, and molds at bay. Can knock humidity down a bit, and lower the temp, depending on the maturation targets.

If you mess any of these up... such as high surface aW, inadequate coryneforms in your wash, humidity/temp issues, pH gradients on surface due to uneven cut, etc, it's pretty tough to get back on track. Every little thing matters and errors and compounded and magnified. Which is why a proper beaufort or other gruyere style, or a well done high moisture stinky is such a high expression of our art.

Make a bit more sense, hopefully? Watch the surface aW, begin with proper moisture by managing the make, and then manage cascade and microbial community succession through humidity, temp, and wash frequency and you'll be set. Easy :P
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Offline Alpkäserei

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2013, 12:24:59 PM »
Thanks LB for that, I like to see the science behind these things -even if I prefer to use the traditional 'non-scientific approach' I want to have a solid understanding of what is going on and why. So I love this kind of info.

what is aW?

Now, of course, I have to sit down and rectify this whole set of theoretical data you have supplied with the reality of practice as I have learned it.

With LB's data, you can examine your procedures and find something that works for you, Find a pattern to follow and stick to it rigidly.
But as a disclaimer, I don't follow his outline 100%, as he explains in the text you don't have to these are just ideal situations, as I understand it. My cheeses out of the the press until they are eaten are always in the same cave, same humidity, etc. But each cheese, in a sense, has its own 'individual humidity' as a result of washing schedules. New cheeses are in a wetter environment that old ones, even though they may be but a few feet away.

Also I haven't had it proven scientifically or performed extensive experiments, but it would appear to me that alcohol in fairly high concentrations works the best, and vinegar is not as ideal.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Emmental schmier/rind question
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 12:30:22 PM »
Quote
what is aW?
Surface moisture. Because all species require water, the moisture of the substrate has a LOT to do with what grows and how well it grows.

Quote
My cheeses out of the the press until they are eaten are always in the same cave, same humidity, etc. But each cheese, in a sense, has its own 'individual humidity' as a result of washing schedules. New cheeses are in a wetter environment that old ones, even though they may be but a few feet away.
Right, so you like almost everyone else have these little mini-climate areas in your aging space, right? And you most likely rotate in a pattern to maximize the type of situation that you want. My details are sort of an idealized perspective based on technical precision. Realistically, anyone can make great cheese, just have pay attention with your senses for what's going on.

Quote
alcohol in fairly high concentrations works the best, and vinegar is not as ideal.
IMHO, depends on what the goal is. Sometimes vinegar has its uses, especially if pH adjustment is needed. Vinegar can be used to successfully "reset" a rind, though that also depends on the existing state. So many variables...
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