Whey looks like milk and less curd volume than previous hard cheeses - why?

[sarak]

I was frantically posting last night as my "might-be-manchego" continued to disappoint me at every opportunity.  First I poured cold cow's milk into warm goat milk that I had just pasteurized.  Then the coagulation took more than twice as long as the recipe said it would (it was the saffron infused manchego from artisan cheesemaking at home - but minus the manchego.  Then I neglected to notice that the temp had risen to 109 while I was supposed to be stirring the curds and breaking them up into rice sized pieces (the rising to 104 was supposed to happen AFFTER the curds were stirred).  At the end of all that, I ended up with about 2/3 rd of the volume of curds I got compared to the Havarti a few nights before.  But most disturbingly, the whey looked like MILK.  As if I hadn't done a thing but imagine the last 3 hrs of my life.  Of course, I should have thought - great!  I'll make ricotta!  But by then I was already demoralized and resigned to half-heartedly pressing it while nursing a beer and watching TV. 

Oh yeah, and the kitchen is still A MESS.

See pictures below - what does it mean that the whey looked like milk that I had just poured? What exactly was in the curds I pressed? Could it have only been the cow OR the goat fat and protein?  Or maybe just the A-type proteins that wanted to get ahead in the world?

[H-K-J]

How hard did you stir the curd? my whey looked like that when I made a Swiss, got 2 x the ricotta as normal, I had stirred it to vigorously at the start and left all the good stuff in the whey  

[Geodyne]

Yes, looks like too vigorous stirring in the early stages to me, resulting in protein loss in the whey and reduced yield.

You can rescue that protein by using the whey to make ricotta. As a fix for the next cheese, stir very gently in the first stages - just enough to move the curds around and stop them matting.

[sarak]

That's what I was afraid of.  I cut the curds to ~1/2 inch, waited 5 minutes then tried to use my whisk to cut it to smaller sizes.  It was too much, too soon.  I could barely move it through the curds - everything seemed to get stuck inside the whisk.  I briefly just went back to using my bread knife (curd cutter) and sliced through the curds as best as I could.  Do any of you use a whisk to cut blocks smaller? Maybe I just need a bigger whisk, but it was not working for me.  I ended up having to almost shake the curds out of the whisk when they would get stuck.  So in retrospect.... yeah, I could have been more gentle.

So how will this effect the cheese?  I would guess it will be dry.  Any suggestions on how to salvage it - should I just expect grating cheese? 

[H-K-J]

When I made a Swiss (??) this is what happened

as you can see in this photo, it looks close to what yours has done (even worse)
If you scroll threw that blog you will spot a lot of mistakes I made in the make Oh-well live and learn

[Digitalsmgital]

Sara is funny, type A proteins indeed!

In the other thread I think you mentioned the addition of calcium chloride which would help with the goat's milk and P&H cow's milk, so time may be the reason, you need to heal the cut curds longer before stirring. I am going to make a raw cow milk for the first time and won't use cal chlor, let's hope I don't have trouble!

[sarak]

Thank you both for your advice. I guess the curds were more sensitive that I thought (and I was probably more irate than I should have been).  I never though of "healing" the curds.

H-K-J - did you ever open that swiss?  What did it taste like?

I am thinking of naming this cheese "maybe manchego", or "mystery manchego" or... "you feelin' lucky, punk?  manchego". 

I am hoping you got the Dirty Harry reference.  I teach and I have a lecture that includes a shot from Dirty Harry.  Every year there are less people who get it... and I feel just that much older.

I don't want to start another thread I case I end up looking like a total idiot, but I am the kind of person who, when I mess one thing up, I have to try it again until I get some sort of success.  So this evening, with another gallon of goat milk staring at me from the fridge, I decided to make a feta. 

I pasteurized the milk to 145F for 30 min (actually, I overshot and it went from 152F to 14F over thirty minutes.  I counted it a success anyway.)

I cooled the milk to 90F in a water bath

I added 0.23 gm Flora Danica (using my new scale!)

I put the pot back in a war water bath for 3 minutes to rehydrate.

I checked the temp - CRAP!!!  The water bath had increased the temp of the milk to 101F!!! A series of (very inappropriate) obscenities followed.

I put the pot back in the COLD bath and gently to moderately stirred the milk get it back to 90 min. All the while kicking myself for basically the same mistake I made last time.

I measured out 0.11 gm additional Flora Danica. 

Once the milk got back to 90F, I put it back on an UNLIT burner and added the 0.11 gm additional culture, let it re-hydrate, stirred, then added in 1/4 tsp calcium chloride diluted in 1/8 cup H2O.

SO.... was it a good idea to add additional culture??? It was a reflex response to the thought of all of those bacteria being "boiled alive" like lobster.  The recipe (this time from Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking) said to ripen for 45-60 min.  I figured I would shoot for the low end and add the rennet at 45 min. 

Ugh.

[H-K-J]

H-K-J - did you ever open that swiss?  What did it taste like?

we opened it at 2 months
Not bad in mac-n-cheese (along with some Caerphilly)
We re-vacuumed and tried it 14 months latter, not good

[sarak]

Ah...I see a lot of mac and cheese in my future.  At least I can use it for that.

In contrast, I took the "feta" out of the brine this evening and I knew that it was a complete failure.  There were alternating hard and soft areas, and the nibbles I took ranged from "pleasantly tasty" to "oh my god, did my cat just vomit this up?".  Knowing that rennet comes from the stomach lining of animals who have only drunk milk, this might in fact be a very accurate description.  I would rather not test that hypothesis, though.

The "might be manchego" is looking better and better.

[Geodyne]

You poor thing!

It sounds like you didn't stir the rennet in enough when you made your feta. When stirring in rennet, I use a board stirrer with an up-and-down motion through the whole milk mass, to lift the milk and rennet up and down in the pot as well as moving it around. I usually do that for around 3 full minutes before allowing the milk to rest.

[sarak]

I usually stir (up and down mostly) for 1 minute.  I will definitely do it longer next time. 

[MrsKK]

Okay, time to take a deep breath.  Cheesemaking isn't rocket science, but it is science, with a lot of artistry thrown in.  Slow down, look at your technique (accuracy is very important until you get it down), and stick with one variety of cheese until it comes out as expected.  all the gadgets in the world won't make good cheese if you don't follow the basic "rules" of cheesemaking - time, temperature, acidity, coagulation, etc.  So, I have a few questions and suggestions that might help you.

1) You frequently mention overshooting your target temp...are you using a hot water bath to warm the milk or is it directly on the stovetop?  A hot water bath is much easier to control, especially if you also monitor the temperature of the water in the outer jacket - it should be 5-10 degrees hotter than you want your milk/cheese to end up.

2) Milk should NOT be stirred for more than 30 seconds after adding the rennet!  As soon as the rennet hits the milk, coagulation starts so you don't want to stir long, just thoroughly.  I use a skimmer to stir around the pot a couple of times, up and down a couple of times, then insert the skimmer straight up and down in the milk to slow the movement of the milk as soon as possible.

3) how are you diluting your rennet?  No matter the type (tablet, powder, liquid) or variety (animal vs vegetable), it should always be diluted in 1/4 cup cool non-chlorinated water JUST before adding it to the milk.  If liquid or tablet, stir the rennet in the water until you don't see the particles anymore.

[MrsKK]

Okay, sorry, I went back and read over your posts again to try to clarify something in my mind and saw that you are using a hot water bath.  Since you are overshooting temps, though, I have to assume that you don't have a thermometer in the water.  Believe me, it is a great tool to help you get to your target temp.

Also, do you have a gas stove with a pilot light?  If so, the pilot light might be hot enough to be overheating the water in the jacket, causing your problems.  I had that happen when I was teaching a cheesemaking class, not realizing how hot the pilot light was on the commercial stove I was using.

Or if you are using an electric stove, the burners stay hot for a long, long time.  Once you get the water jacket to ten degrees above the target for your milk, shut the burner off or remove the kettle to an unheated surface.

Good luck and please don't get discouraged!

[sarak]

MrsKK - you couldn't be more correct.  The first step is admitting that I have a problem... with temperature monitoring.  A stroke of brilliance hit me this weekend and I posted this: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12380.0.html .  AND- it has two probes!  I will take your advice and monitor the water bath as well. 

I realized that I forgot to answer your question about how I dilute the rennet.  With rennet or CaCl I always dilute in 1/4 cup water from my reverse-osmosis filter.  There shouldn't be any chemicals left in there - but I can always go to distilled water if you think it would help.  I use liquid calf rennet. 

I waxed the cheese several days ago, when it FELT dry at least.  I noticed yesterday that there is a "bubble" in the wax - about the size of my thumb.  It didn't feel like there was liquid in it, but I suppose  have to get it over with and take it off and re-wax.  Grr. 

I do have a gas stove- I never thought of the pilot light.  The temps here in New Mexico go between extremes over the course of a day and night.  It is not uncommon where I am to have a difference of 30-40F between the afternoon and 3 am.  I seem to always be struggling with temps - I even set up a space heater before I go to bed if something is being pressed or ripening overnight. It is easy enough to move the pot off of the stove - as you can see in my "elegant" setup below: