Simple process using whey only : how good is that ?

[nonet]

Hi folks.
I am new to the forum, and not very knowledgeable about the different processes to create starters (both practically and scientifically speaking).
I'd like your opinion on my process, please
[warning: non english native speaker] 

When I start from scratch, without any starter, and want to create a simple lactic cheese, I usually buy a bit of "fresh cheese" from the cheese store, drain the whey and directly use that whey to start the fermentation of my (raw) milk.
This usually works fine, as I get more fresh cheese and more whey that I use for the next cheese, good.
[I personally like it because it's simple.]

Q: is there anything wrong with doing so ?

I guess I can't make any cheese doing so because, as far as I understand, that is a mesophilic-only starter, correct ?
(At least I can make some cheese  )

Then, as I don't make cheese every day, I usually freeze the whey until I need it (sometimes a week or two weeks after, at most). This usually works fine, although sometimes using the frozen whey for a new cheese, I don't go down in pH very fast. It can take up to 1-2 days of fermentation to get a pH ~ 4.5 for a lactic cheese.

Q: is there a good way to reactivate frozen whey before using it as a starter ?

And another question I have is when to freeze the whey ?
I usually store the fresh cheese in small "drainers" ("molds" ? not sure how you call that ), put them in the fridge and eat them for breakfast along the week. So essentially I have a full week during which I can choose to freeze the whey.

Q: When should I freeze it ? Right after I mold the curds ? Or rather after a few days in the fridge (the bacteria would have more time to develop, perhaps?)

Sorry if these are a stupid questions that have already been answered a thousand times, I just couldn't find the answer by myself.
And thanks a lot in advance for your feedback, I would really appreciate !

[Aris]

I hope this forum post will help you answer your questions. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=10345.0

[Lancer99]

I don't think that 1-2 days is unusual for lactic cheeses.  That has been my experience when using commercial cultures.

I don't have any experience using whey, but I don't think keeping it in the fridge will help, because that will mostly keep any bacteria from reproducing. It might be better to freeze it immediately.

Ton anglais est excellent!

-L

[mikekchar]

When I start from scratch, without any starter, and want to create a simple lactic cheese, I usually buy a bit of "fresh cheese" from the cheese store, drain the whey and directly use that whey to start the fermentation of my (raw) milk.
This usually works fine, as I get more fresh cheese and more whey that I use for the next cheese, good.
[I personally like it because it's simple.]

Q: is there anything wrong with doing so ?

If the culture is still active in the fresh cheese it might work.  However, I think most of the work is coming from your raw milk.  I recommend using creme fraiche instead.  This will give you a mesophilic culture.  If you want a thermophilic culture add Greek or Bulgarian yogurt.

Then, as I don't make cheese every day, I usually freeze the whey until I need it (sometimes a week or two weeks after, at most). This usually works fine, although sometimes using the frozen whey for a new cheese, I don't go down in pH very fast. It can take up to 1-2 days of fermentation to get a pH ~ 4.5 for a lactic cheese.

Q: is there a good way to reactivate frozen whey before using it as a starter ?

Freezing whey is not a good method to store a culture.  It usually dies.  That's why it is acidifying slowly.  Probably you are only using the bacteria in your raw milk.  Instead, you should take some of your whey and add it to milk to make a yogurt.  Then freeze the yogurt.  Just make the yogurt the same way you make your lactic cheese.  This will be good for several months.

When you take it out of the freezer, you should add it to some milk and make yogurt again.  Then use your yogurt for your cheese making.

[Lancer99]

So freezing whey will kill the bacteria but freezing yogurt won't?

Even when using commercial cultures, and in a water bath with a heater and temperature controller, it often takes me longer than 24 hours to get to anything resembling a curd with lactic cheeses.

So I don't think that using whey is a problem. 

-L

[mikekchar]

That's been my experience.  If it's working for you, then it's fine.  I guess it depends a lot on the temperature and other factors, but my buttermilk cultures take about 12-15 hours at 25 C and my yogurt cultures take about 8 hours at 42 C.

[stantovitch]

It makes sense to me that freezing whey would kill the bacteria — there is a lot more water that will form ice crystals and will be problematic for the bacteria.

When we freeze bacteria in the lab, it is never just in a weak aqueous solution — the bugs will die. Usually we use glycerol, or something else to disrupt ice crystal formation.  Milk and yogurt likely freeze differently on a physiochemical level than whey does.

[nonet]

Hi guys, thank a lot for your feedback.

The process described in the link indicated by Aris seems to me overcomplicated (it may be correct though!)
My initial feeling came from a process that a farmer showed me in Sainte-Maure-de-Touraine (in cas you know this Chevre): this guy doesn't use any DVI or yoghurt-based starters, but juste simple whey that he would keep in the fridge from one batch to the other, day after day. Nothing else. And gosh, he makes amazing chevre : no surprise, very stable quality yer after year, and one of the best producers of the surroundings (humanly speaking too )
That's why I thought things could really be simple.

I never dared to try to start from raw milk only, no whey : if most of the job is made from the milk, then I should probably get similar results, and simplify the process even more if that works haha
And I will surely try and see what happens with the creme fraiche starter. Thanks for the hints Mikekchar.

However, freezing does not kill bacteria. That is the reason why we are always told not to re-freeze a defrosted dish, or why permafrost is a real danger in case of climate change (bacteria still alive even after thousands of years). Those two arguments seem sufficient to me to get an idea

[Gürkan Yeniçeri]

Q: Is there anything wrong with doing so?

No, all good. Make sure you are working with sanitized utensils. Yes, it would be mesophilic. I usually crumble/grate some cheese into milk to prepare a mother culture.

Q: is there a good way to reactivate frozen whey before using it as a starter ?

Put the ice cubes in 250ml milk and incubate at around room temperature (24-25C) overnight. The milk should curdle like yogurt in the morning. This indicates the bacteria is alive and well.

Q: When should I freeze it? Right after I mold the curds? Or rather after a few days in the fridge (the bacteria would have more time to develop, perhaps?)

As soon as the whey is ready, you freeze it. That is when the bacteria is at its peak. Don't wait as the lactose in the whey depleting fast.

[mikekchar]

Don't wait as the lactose in the whey depleting fast.

Hmmm... I wonder if this is why I was never successful...