Author Topic: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking  (Read 554 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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From another thread, Pav's help there:

High 80s means b linens will grow, but slowly. Other molds easily outcompete with it. when you're at 90-92%, the b linens and geotrichum go back and forth in the first 10 days, fighting for dominance. But at 85-88%, b linens will be slow and spotty, makes for a mottled kind of look.

Here's a good rule of thumb... in the mid to high 80s, yeasts, mycodore, and mycoderm can compete with molds. When you get to 90-95, they don't compete as well. When you get to 95, they can hardly compete with b linens and geo. When you get to 98, even geo can't compete well with b linens.

So that's why I usually will start at 85, and watch for growth. if b linens/geo balance is too slow, I move the wheels to a more humid part or put a box over some wheels to help the growth. If they are too fast, I'll let them slow down in a less humid part. This is for the first week. After that, a steady 85-88 RH makes for a good rind, and then brush back depending on how you want it to come out. More brushing = thinner rind because of less mold growth.

Revisiting this, Pav and others.  My recent tommes have been kept at 85F.  Washed for about a week, or until a tacky skin is evident, then the plan was to leave alone; I'm seeking a thick, powerful rind and strong flavors. 

I'm disappointed in the development.  Tomme 1, at 2 weeks post-washing, has an almost complete dusting of white, which I presume to be either geo or frail mycodore, can't tell which.  But it really is a mere dusting, and nothing like "hair" or anything else that needs to be brushed back.  Ideally, I'd like a very strong mould coating, with hair that necessitates panking down (choosing this, over brushing, I think). 

So I'm upping the cave to 90%; but I think what I'll end up with is the very mottled after-battle effect of many organisms duking it out, as you've taught, Pav, and nothing like the very smooth, even coating of grey/white mould, as seen in French Cheeses for Tomme de Lullin and other tommes.  Yet many of the sources suggest an RH of 90-92%.

Secondly, presuming I do develop evidence of good mould; my plan was to ignore it until strongly developed.  What I mean by that is literally, leave it totally alone, unturned, though it's on wood planking.  I can't see how they get that long-hair development, unless they do this, ignore the cheeses for some period of time.  As you've mentioned, Pav, turning will tend to yield a thinner rind. 

That said, leaving a wheel unturned, it seems to me, will give you strong development on 3 sides, but the side underneath against the planking, is basically getting continually "panked" by the planking, so you'll have a thin rind on one side. 

In a word, how do the traditional makers get:

-thick mould rinds, of even coating (suggesting mould dominance) and not a mottled look (suggesting a battle between mould, geo, linens, perhaps);

-we've talked about 85%.  Given the above paragraph, is there a true sweet spot that allows this even coating of hair, while discouraging geo and linens?  In other words, is 90% perhaps "better" in this way?  The Lullin material mentions 90-92%.  And the rind is anything but mottled, it's like a matte, grey blanket.

-If letting a wheel develop unmolested, to allow a "thick, mushroomy rind" for strong flavors, how do traditional makers using wooden planking manage an even development on all 4 sides?

Thanks,

Paul
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 10:39:20 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2014, 10:41:43 AM »
A few more:

Mycodore - mold or yeast?  I've seen it described as both.  Perhaps it exhibits behavior of both?  What is it?

And Mycoderm is bloody expensive, only available in 100 dose units, at over $100.  Enough for several lifetimes.  How well does this stuff keep?  My usual method is to empty the culture into an old plastic Rx container, twist-top so presumably an airtight lid. 

Lullin has this even, velvet, matte grey carpet, like a roan horse.  What is that?  I say, "that" because I see one extremely predominant culture there, nothing too mottled.  At least not as mottled white/grey/tan as I see in other tommes.

Secondly, for the mottled grey and white rind, is that rind often seen, is this probably both mycodore and mycoderm?  Is this kind of tomme:



Almost necessarily involving mycoderm?
- Paul

Offline jwalker

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
Not sure if this thread is the right place or not for this , but I am wondering about rinds as well , specifically Linens.

I did a Reblochon and washed with a brine with Geo and Linens , it got kind of a shmier going at first , then it kind of firmed up and grew a nice coating of Linens and softened the paste and gave it a nice flavor.

I am now aging and washing a Tomme with the same brine , and so far nothing , the only thing that was different , was that in the Reblochon , I added Linens to the make , in the Tomme I did not , if a person wants it on the rind , should they add it to the make as well , or will it change the character of the cheese too drastically ?

Feel free to move this if I've hijacked your thread , but it seemed to me that my current rind problem is very similar to yours , and I might find some answers here.

Jim.
No..........I'm not a professional CheeseMaker , but I play one on TV.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 12:22:41 PM »
Jim, no worries at all about hijacking, it's all good.  I'll let Pav or Sailor or Francois chime in on this one, as I'm pretty rusty.  After my cave settled in, I didn't have an issue with linens growth - my Beaufort had a lot of it, along with micrococci, yeasts, geo and even some captured strains, but this mould-centric desire is new to me, so I'm in an unknown place. 

For my Beauforts, I used to maintain my cave at 98%, and inoculated both the vat and the morge with my intended cultures.  Starting off, my Beaufort cave behaved very strangely - and in fact, I'm reminded of the behavior here, in that tommes and gruyeres had a hard time getting going.  I think it was either Pav or Francois who suggested it might just be that it was a new cave, which takes awhile to settle in.  Lots of blues issues, and yep, this very sluggish rind development. 

So take it for what it's worth, but that was my experience.  Whether by luck, my own diligence, the wisdom of others, I'd say I finally arrived at a Beaufort that could stand with the best of them, so something was right (swiss nationals living in the gruyere area said mine was very much in the vein of their better gruyeres, and others were equally positive).  I ascribe it to a good vat make (finally understood the dynamics of retained calcium), a complex morge (critical to the style, I'd say), and a cave that held well at 98% or so.  That, and patience, not easy for me.

Hope it helps; I hope one of the experts come in, here.  Good luck!

Paul
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 09:02:32 AM »
Pav, anyone? 
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 11:34:17 AM »
Quote
I can't see how they get that long-hair development
This requires specie, practice, and envrionment. You don't have species. No amt of hard work can get you there if the foundation makes for a different rind.

Quote
thick mould rinds, of even coating
Mold dominance. Also often there are secondary growths for the mold cycles, happens naturally.

Quote
In other words, is 90% perhaps "better" in this way? 
Yes. Also keep microclimates in account. eg, a cheese freshly sporulating with mold will infect its neighbors much more than raising Rh by a few points. But yes, 90 will work better for mold.

Quote
how do traditional makers using wooden planking manage an even development on all 4 sides?
Same as I described. Flip as necessary every few days. More in beginning. Even growth tends to happen because the mold is everywhere.
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 11:41:40 AM »
OK, thanks much, Pav.  I do plan on stocking my caves heavy, and had hoped that once this becomes the regular environment, I'll start seeing some things developing (much my experience, "last time," with my Beaufort).  I'll keep plugging away. 
- Paul

Offline mnml

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Re: "Sweet spot" RH for thick mould rind; Turning, and wooden planking
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 10:26:34 AM »
What if:

This aging room also houses a hard, natural-rind cheese? What could be a median, or compromise RH to assist in proper, not-so-thick rind development in a natural-rind cheese while also allowing an effective rind for a washed-rind cheese?
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