Author Topic: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!  (Read 8281 times)

TimT

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2014, 09:57:52 PM »
What an infurating, heartbreaking problem. I hope you're salvaging the milk and making ricotta or something similar!

I'm rather persuaded by the idea that it might be an infection. Have you used the same milk this year to make cheese successfully at another place as someone else on this thread suggested? If the same milk will produce vastly different results at different places.... it certainly looks like we have found a culprit.

Perhaps there is a thread online about dealing with infection. You could try to isolate it. You could try shifting cheesemaking to another part of the house. You could go the nuclear solution (well, not quite). Sterilise absolutely everything. (Ugh!) (Not guaranteed it will work either).

If the goats are the source of an infection I'm not sure there's much you can do, unless - hmmm - they suddenly develop an interest in a probiotic diet? Oh dear. Good luck!

WovenMeadows

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2014, 11:52:04 PM »
That you do have a pH drop down to 5.6 shows you do have lactic acid bacteria activity, so it doesn't look like phage is the issue.
And your milk starting pH doesn't suggest mastitis or high SCC - but have you checked on that yet?
No fresh goats adding colostrum to the milk?

And have you tried a stronger, hard-cheese dose of rennet to check for coagulation in that respect?

Offline Tiarella

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2014, 12:09:33 AM »
That you do have a pH drop down to 5.6 shows you do have lactic acid bacteria activity, so it doesn't look like phage is the issue.
And your milk starting pH doesn't suggest mastitis or high SCC - but have you checked on that yet?
No fresh goats adding colostrum to the milk?

And have you tried a stronger, hard-cheese dose of rennet to check for coagulation in that respect?

I've encouraged Joe and/or Stan to chime in on these ideas.  I can say that Joe is a vet so it's pretty unlikely there is mastitis involved.  He can best answer freshening dates but I know it is weeks past freshening.  I'm hoping they'll try a hard cheese to check flocculation.  So phage can't be it if there's a pH drop?  Hmmmm, I was pinning my hopes on that.  I'll check with them whether they've tried different cultures, not just different packets of the same culture although I know they had tried some from Dairy Connection's "Get Culture" site and some from New England Cheesemaking. 

WovenMeadows

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 01:00:48 AM »
As I understand, bacteriophage are basically viruses that attack bacteria. They are strain specific, such that one type of phage will only infect a very specific type of bacteria. That's why you might have noticed some suppliers offer varying "types" of otherwise the same culture - like TA61 and TA62 for thermophilus culture. A cheesemaker could switch between the two strains to keep phage in check.
When bacteriophage infect a bacteria, like most viruses, they "reprogram" the bacteria to produce copies of themselves, and then basically make the bacteria explode, releasing more phage, to infect more bacteria, to produce more phage...and so on. Hence no bacteria to convert lactose to lactic acid and drop the pH. Hence a failure of the milk/cultures to acidify being a symptom of phage infection. But since acidification is happening, it seems the lactic bacteria are working more or less just fine.

Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 03:15:29 PM »
What about calcium levels in the milk? You might try adding a very small amount of calcium chloride and see what that does.

Part of the clotting of milk involves calcium ions causing proteins to bond together. When you describe 'milky whey' it makes me think, maybe you are getting an enzymatic protein bond but lack the calcium levels needed to successfully clot and bind fat and lactose out of the milk.

Also, you mention a milk ph of 6.6, that is somewhat low suggesting low calcium levels might be the case.

Try increasing the calcium intake in your goats. As a vet, you should know that primarily grass and grain fed animals need mineral supplements. I suspect they simply don't have enough calcium in their diet making a 'weak' milk.


Sailor Con Queso

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 04:49:42 PM »
This is NOT a bacteriophage problem.

Schag

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2014, 12:12:58 PM »
I wanted to throw a quick note in before I went off to work.
Last night we tried the whole process again only this time we used raw cows milk from another dairy.  The results were exactly the same, thick cream - maybe slightly coagulated?  I'm off to the cheese store today to get new culture and rennet.

John@PC

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2014, 12:29:00 PM »
Sounds like you're closing in identifying the possible culprit(s).  Good luck!

Bonesjmc

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 01:19:07 PM »
Hello Again.. its Joe. So first, thank you all so much for your suggestions. The expertise on this website is incredible.

We did try the same recipe we have been using for the chevre with a gallon of raw, cows milk. Same result.  I checked with our culture supplier and it looks like I have tried using an M101, then an M100 culture this season. Although the M101 was from last year.  So I think a phage is less likely.  We have added rennet at the beginning (usual) and midway through incubation (a suggestion) with same result.

Our culture supplier was very interested in the problem and is sending us a free sample of flora danica  and some new rennet.  I will again, check pH at the beginning of the process and at the end. Ive been told if I'm not getting down to about 4.6 at the end of incubation there is likely some problem with culture or an interfering substance. We tried to remove the cleaning solution from the equation by hand milking and using the milk from the clean pail. No change.  I don't think contaminant bacteria is likely as the "mixture" looks, smells and tastes as I would expect.  I will keep you posted on our next attempt this weekend.

Maybe this is just the push we need to start making more hard cheeses :)

Again, thank you for all your help/suggestions and  many thanks to our bff Tiarella for helping us out on this website. Have a great weekend everyone
Joe


amiriliano

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 12:33:28 AM »
I would seriously consider that your cheese making area has bacteriopahge contamination as mentioned above. Is the whey kept for long periods of time near the cheesemaking surfaces?

http://www.dairyscience.info/index.php/bacteriophage-control.html

JeffHamm

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2014, 06:14:59 AM »
Hmmm, are you mixing the rennet up well ahead of the make?  Rennet gets weaker if it's in the water (at least chlorinated water) for a while, so it is best to mix it up and put it in right away.  So, if you're being efficient and preparing the rennet ahead of the make and it's sitting around for a while, maybe that's the problem?

- Jeff

Juan Fries Widdat

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2014, 12:36:37 PM »
Hmmm, are you mixing the rennet up well ahead of the make?  Rennet gets weaker if it's in the water (at least chlorinated water) for a while, so it is best to mix it up and put it in right away.  So, if you're being efficient and preparing the rennet ahead of the make and it's sitting around for a while, maybe that's the problem?

- Jeff

That might be it -

I had a friend try cheese at her home in town with my cultures, rennet and milk. Floc but no coag. - (White cloud in the bottom of the pan) - When she replaced the city water (chlorinated) with which she diluted the rennet with distilled on her next make it was all good.

If not chlorine in the water are vessels retaining chlorine from a disinfecting rinse?

JeffHamm

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2014, 06:46:27 PM »
Sounds like you're on to it now.  Boil some water ahead of time, sterilize your container with some of the water, then replace with some new boiled water and let it cool.  Boiling will remove the chlorine.  Add your rennet to your cooled boiled water just before you want to add it to the milk.  If it is the chlorine, this should do it for you.

- Jeff

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2014, 08:16:38 PM »
Better yet. Don't use chlorine. There are several options. I use StarSan because it is no rinse.

Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! Or, Help us solve this mystery!!!
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2014, 10:38:50 PM »
I use boiling water for everything, avoiding chemicals at all costs. I find it to be a generally sound practice (but it does create some work)

The only chemical cleanser I will use is vinegar, heated and mixed with non-iodized salt (just adding salt to vinegar won't do much, but when you cook them together you get HCL in much larger amounts. You need an energy input to drive the reaction, or a catalyst like copper. Also, cooking gets rid of some of the water and concentrates the acid to a small degree)