Author Topic: My cheese is still dry  (Read 2744 times)

Offline steffb503

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My cheese is still dry
« on: November 11, 2014, 02:52:38 PM »
I am trying to perfect a recipe and could use the expertise of you folks.

I am making Edam as per Margret Morris' recipe in The cheese makers manual.
I am using raw goat milk from my goats. While the taste is very good it is much drier than I would like.
I have not yet made any with my PH meter, that will be next, but thought if there was something that jumped out at you I could change that during the next make.

5 gallons to 84F
Add 1/2 tsp MA 11-14-16
Allowing milk to ripen for 30 mins @88F
Add Rennet to 1/4 cup cool water then add to milk. Stir up and down for 15 seconds.
Typical Floc time 15 mins using 3x factor . Curds set at 45-55 mins
Curds cut into 1/2 cubes and stirred gently for 5 mins.
Gradually heat curds to 91F over 30 mins.
Stirring during entire process( this never happens. I stir every 5 mins or so)
Remove 1/2 whey and replace with 111F water
Stir briskly to stabilize temp to 99F
Maintain 99F for 25 mins
Allowing the curds to settle during this cooking phase
When curds are ready, drain into colander
Press overnight
remove and place in heavy brine for approx 24-30 hours flipping halfway through.
Air dry 2-3 days then typically vacuum seal.



Offline awakephd

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 05:22:01 PM »
I will be curious to see the responses from others, since I am only a year into this hobby ... but one thing I have been seeing that I want to do differently with my next washed-curd cheese is to shorten the time in the press. My sense is that I am probably leaving it too long, allowing the PH to get too low ... and I think overly-acidic translates into drier/crumblier cheese -- ??
-- Andy

Spoons

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 08:09:32 PM »
awakephd is right. It's a sign of over-acidification (crumbly, not dry). If you don't have a PH meter, try and only press for 6 hours at about 4 PSI 22C.

Not sure if this is also a factor, but may cause some problems if not done right: Careful not to scald the curds with that 111F water. You might kill off some cultures along the way at that temps. Most washed curd recipes take 15 or so minutes to gradually incorporate hot water to prevent scalding. 

Offline steffb503

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 10:59:30 AM »
thank you both
I will let you know what I come up with, about 4 months from now!

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 08:02:57 PM »
I have noticed that the paste of my washed-curd cheeses isn't always as soft as I would like so this is something I'll remember next time.  The "slow heating" is also a good tip worth abiding by.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2014, 09:31:47 PM »
I want to make sure I understand what you mean by "drier."  Is it literally drier, like the mouthfeel leaves you feeling it's, well, drier than you would like?  Pasty, something like a dry chevre?  Crumbly texture?  Acidic?  Too hard? 

If we're talking crumbly, on pH.  I have no experience with washed curd, so this is pure extrapolation, conjecture, take it for what you will.  In trying to achieve a nice elasticity in an alpine curd, it's more important what your drain pH is, v. the terminal pH.  Your vat acid curve will largely determine how much colloidal calcium, the micelle calcium phosphate, is lost to the whey.  Lower vat pH means more calcium phosphate solubilizes, and that means less in the curds.  That results in a less elastic, more crumbly curd.

I wouldn't think this is an issue, though, in a washed curd, depending on how much lactose you do wash away, so a bit of me wonders that it might not be so much an acid issue, as a physico-chemico issue - temps, cut size, ramp and cook schedule, etc. 

That said, managing acid has been for me the steepest learning curve to date.  In early tommes - not so much hard, but too crumbly (i.e., a hard cheese obviously can have plenty of elasticity, as in the hard alpines)...that, I can almost aver, is always acid, for me.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 09:38:28 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline steffb503

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 11:18:25 AM »
Well those descriptions always confuse me.
It is definitely crumbly and too hard. Not at all pasty.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 01:21:06 PM »
Well those descriptions always confuse me.
It is definitely crumbly and too hard. Not at all pasty.

Yeah, agreed, it's difficult to convey a sensory experience in words.  Unfortunately it's all we have. 

Crumbly and too hard to me points very clearly to acid.  More specifically, vat acid at that.  Not to say other things might also contribute - all the other physical parameters talked about.  But the crumbly nature is an acid issue, loss of calcium.  Odd, to me anyway, given the washed curd nature of the make. 

Wait - I just noticed - 1/2 tsp MA for 5 gallons?  That seems wildly out of range, to me.  I just went to the book and see she's even got it slightly higher dosed, at 1/2 at 3-4 gallons.  I don't make any washed curd makes so again I'm only surmising, but looking at Gianaclis Caldwell's rendition, as an example, her equivalent for 4 gallons would be 1/4 tsp.  So very close to double, in your make.  Granted, we're looking at different cultures (MA 4001 for the Caldwell v. your MA 11 series), but if anything, MA 011 tends to be a stronger acidifier then the MA 4001 (all other things being equal - which can mean a lot, but still, illustrative).  I suspect that may point to the culprit.  My guess is you've just got way too much culture in your vat. 

You could use your pH meter over 2 makes - one with the dosing as you have it, and one with less, and compare the curves in the vat, during press and drain, and terminal. 

Edit:  I just remembered Anonymous is above, and this is his metier.  Anonymous, is that dosing within range?  Seems really high to me, but I really don't know anything about these makes and this is your bailiwick.  Does one dose high, given the washing?  Any thoughts on Caldwell's 1/4 tsp v. Morris' 1/2 tsp for 4 gallons?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 01:30:52 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline awakephd

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 04:27:57 PM »
Arnaud,

Having just made a couple of "Swiss" style cheeses the past two weekends, while at the same trying to learn how to use my new PH meter, your comment about draining PH is very interesting. Could you tell me what PH you find optimal to drain? I'm assuming that will be whey PH, rather than curd?

Also, do you run into problems with the PH starting to get too low before the curd is cooked to the proper break?
-- Andy

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 04:45:59 PM »
Arnaud,

Having just made a couple of "Swiss" style cheeses the past two weekends, while at the same trying to learn how to use my new PH meter, your comment about draining PH is very interesting. Could you tell me what PH you find optimal to drain? I'm assuming that will be whey PH, rather than curd?

Also, do you run into problems with the PH starting to get too low before the curd is cooked to the proper break?

Awake, I shoot for 6.45.  Acceptable to me is as low as 6.35, which you'll see in some guidelines (can't recall where I've seen this lower figure, however).  So long as it's not ridiculously high, somewhat above 6.45 is good with me, too.  Basically, you have a fairly decent window of play, so long as you're not too low - with these cheeses, preservation of calcium is key.  I tend to inoculate on the low side (1-1.2% bulk equivalent).  Doing so allows you a good, gentle curve to deal with, and you don't tend to run into issues, such as you mention, during ripening (or later).

I try when using a sample to be as close to the vat condition as possible - meaning, my drain pH is usually a small sample of mixed curds and whey.  I've also done pure whey, and relatively pure curds, and in my experience - in the vat - both have yielded fairly close measurements, with whey typically a touch higher. 

I find TA to be a cumbersome method, so don't like to use it during makes, typically.  Though I find that's just a function of my comparatively lesser experience with the method, and keep trying to incorporate it during makes.  Only way through is practice!

I've unfortunately not had much luck using whey later on, during press, as a good indicator of wheel pH (I typically try to maintain a small sample of curds, in the same temp and roughly the same dryness, as the wheel, for press and terminal pH measurement).  Again, not happy with this and continue to try and get a better means for an accurate, consistent read of wheel pH.
- Paul

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 05:44:58 PM »
Does one dose high, given the washing?  Any thoughts on Caldwell's 1/4 tsp v. Morris' 1/2 tsp for 4 gallons?

Yeah, I missed the dosage on the original post. It surely is a factor.

Even with the washing, you dose normally. So in this case; 1/4 tsp is the right dosage. That would explain the over-acidification in the vat.

BTW, I buy all my ingredients from Morris' store and she labels the meso Choozit cultures as follows:
12 -15 liters (3-4 gallons) 1/4 tsp

So she contradicts herself in her recipe. Probably a Typo in her recipe book. Also, my washed curd cheese recipes are from 4.7 gallons of milk and the acidification during pressing is still a bit fast to my liking. So 1/4 tsp for a 5 gallons washed curd is good enough. You might need to stir on the longer side of the recipe though before draining.

Offline steffb503

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Re: My cheese is still dry
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 08:22:51 PM »
Thanks!
I will do 2 separate makes.