Author Topic: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.  (Read 18253 times)

Sweet Leaves Farm

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2014, 04:01:10 PM »
If I pasteurized every batch, I would definitely need 2 pots. Since I only pasteurize fresh cheese, and milk for baby goats, it's only about a third of the time, except for a few months in early spring. Each kid drinks about half a gallon a day, so I pasteurize alot in March and April.
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2014, 04:04:46 PM »
If I pasteurized every batch, I would definitely need 2 pots. Since I only pasteurize fresh cheese, and milk for baby goats, it's only about a third of the time, except for a few months in early spring. Each kid drinks about half a gallon a day, so I pasteurize alot in March and April.
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)

Jennifer, in addition to what John and others have offered, you might want to also look up Wayne Harris's and I believe, also, Sailor Con Queso's setups, in this context.  Not to pasterization temps or protocol, but I believe relevant. 
- Paul

John@PC

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2014, 09:31:15 PM »
I wonder if I could make a double boiler setup, using a larger more shallow pan, with the band heater, and a very sturdy rack and enough water to cover the wall of the pot up past the heater...
How much heat loss would that be? Would I be able to stir the pot without scorching my pants?
If I only had a dollar for everytime I ask that question;)

That sounds like a good idea.  If you have a 20" diameter pot and get someone to cut a 22 1/2" dia. 55 gal. drum to the height you need, you would have a nice 1" space to fill with water and have a nice big double boiler.  Maybe use a round piece of 1" thick rigid polyurethane between the drum and pot, strap one or two of the band heaters around the outside and wrap with some appropriate insulation (to keep pants from scorching) and off you go!

Let me say also better to check with the experts like Paul says.  Just curious, is it safe to do a "slow pasteurization" where you would take several hours to get to 140F?  I know you have to hold at 140 for 30 min. but is there any danger taking a while to get there?

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2014, 10:07:37 PM »
Let me say also better to check with the experts like Paul says. 

Whoops, let me just say John, I consider you an expert.  And Jennifer, sorry, I obviously need to slow down.  I thought you were talking about a cheese make, not pasteurization. 

Edit:  I need to slow down.  Including my own writing. :-[
- Paul

Stinky

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2014, 10:18:27 PM »
Yes, having no real winter is rather nice.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2014, 10:51:33 PM »
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.
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Offline pastpawn

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2014, 11:57:47 PM »
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.

Sunny and 80F for Christmas doesn't jive with the holiday music on the radio.  It's great right now, but snow for the holiday is kinda nice. 
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Sweet Leaves Farm

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2014, 12:47:49 AM »
John- Pasteurization needs to be done in less than 4 hours, for best milk quality, especially since I'm using Goat's milk, which is more easily damaged than cow's milk. So, ideally less than 2 hours to get to 140, 30 min at temp, then cool quickly. I wonder if I could just put the  10 gallon milk cans in the hot water bath, get them to temp and then back in the cooler. It would be a smaller volume of milk, quicker to get to temp and then cool. Then I could put my big 26 gallon pot in the water bath, and a cheese making I would go...

Paul- I feel your pain, especially when I'm out hand milking goats in an unheated shed in January.


Stinky

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2014, 03:37:42 AM »
Right about now, Stinky, I'm crying.

*patpatpat*

I shall do my best to make it up to you someday.

John@PC

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2014, 02:21:21 PM »
I wonder if I could just put the  10 gallon milk cans in the hot water bath, get them to temp and then back in the cooler. It would be a smaller volume of milk, quicker to get to temp and then cool. Then I could put my big 26 gallon pot in the water bath, and a cheese making I would go...
  Sounds good assuming you can get the water temp to where you need it with heat losses and all.  You may want to look at FSW (FoodServiceWarehouse) as they have the size pots you're looking for and offer free ship over $300.  Screen grab shows my "cart" with 100qt ss pot and a 160qt aluminum pot for the water bath (had to add the frying pan to get free shipping).

Offline pastpawn

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2014, 03:25:13 PM »
Has anyone considered running the milk through a smaller diameter coil or pipe----either gravity fed or pumped-----and just heat the pipe? Ni-chrome wire is readily available to make any heating element you want. Just a thought.
Qdog


^^ This is what I'd do - a heat exchanger.  I'd get a coil of stainless steel tubing, put it inside a boiler pot, and pump the milk through the pot to another container.  Keep the boiler at 212 and modulate the flow rate to get the exit temperature you want from the coil. 

You'd want to put a thermometer at the exit of the coil.  Flow could be modulated with a simple manual ball valve or automated with a proportional electric valve. 





Tubing from here is $50.  Note that bending stainless without kinking is a mother.  Much better to buy it pre-coiled like here than getting a bunch of tubing from mcmaster-carr and trying to bend it yourself.  I'd prefer 1/2" for this application.  http://morebeer.com/products/stainless-draft-coil.html

For a pump, March Pumps makes an inexpensive ($100) food grade pump that is perfect for any temp, including boiling liquids.   I use a March 809-PL-HS http://www.marchpump.com/series-809-hs/
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 03:33:20 PM by pastpawn »
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Sweet Leaves Farm

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2014, 06:17:34 PM »
For best milk quality, it's not a great idea to pump goat milk anywhere. The protein and fat molecules can rip apart and make the milk be less than perfect. I get lots of comments on how rich and sweet my goat's milk is, I don't want to do anything that could change that. It also makes me nervous when I can't see to clean. I know I'll have to get over it in order to use a bucket milker, but I'm not ready yet. And for most of the hoses on the bucket milker, I can use clear silicon hoses.  :)

Now that I have a better idea of cost and space requirements, I can start designing my space in the garage. I'll take pics when I get it going next spring. Thanks everyone!
John, if the company sends you the info about the band heater, could you post it, for everyone to read? Thanks!

qdog1955

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2014, 11:08:12 AM »
 Thanks  pastpawn for explaining the concept much better then I did---but I think Jennifer is right about pumping----the gravity fed would solve that problem.
Qdog

Offline awakephd

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2014, 08:03:47 PM »
Jennifer,

I want to be sure you have looked carefully at John's calculations for time required to heat the milk using a 1750W heating unit (e.g., a 120v band heater):

    (21,600 BTU (required)  / 5,972 BTU/hr) x .50 = 7.2 hr to heat 26 gal. 100 deg.

Keep in mind that there is no way around the physics here -- no matter what you do, it takes a certain amount of BTU's to heat a certain quantity of milk in a certain span of time. You may not need 100 degrees of temperature rise, depending on whether you are coming straight from the goat ... but even if you only need 50 degrees of temperature rise, you are pushing your 4 hour window.

Separating the 26 gallons into, say, three 8.6 gallon batches is not the answer. That will let you heat each batch more quickly ... but by the time you have heated all three, one after another, plus the time to hold each batch at heat for 30 minutes, and the time to transfer each batch to and from the heating pot, you have actually taken more time that you would heating it all at once. Likewise, heating the milk as it flows through a tube is not the answer -- once again, you can heat the quart or so of milk that is in the tube relatively quickly ... but by the time you have heated all 26 gallons, you are back to your BTU equation. :(

Of course, if you heat each batch simultaneously with its own band heater--i.e., using three band heaters at the same time--you can speed things up enough to meet your target. But now you are facing a different issue of physics, or at least of conventional residential wiring: you cannot plug all three band heaters into the same 120v circuit without blowing a fuse. Most household 120v circuits are wired for 15 amps max, though it is possible to have one wired for 20 amps. 120v X 15 amps = 1800W. Thus, each band heater will use the entire amperage for a given circuit--not for a given plug or outlet, but for every plug/outlet on the entire circuit. It is highly unlikely that your garage has three separate circuits wired to three separate outlets; if you have as many as three outlets in the garage, they are almost certainly all wired to the same circuit. In fact, it is quite possible that the outlet(s) in your garage are part of the same circuit as the lights in the garage, and/or any outside outlets (got any Christmas lights plugged in?), or so on. In other words, you may not have enough amperage available to run even one band heater at 1750W on the existing garage outlet(s).

All of this assumes that your garage is wired up conventionally--that no one has, for example, wired up a 240v circuit in your garage. If that is the case, or if you are in a position to have one wired up, the equation changes drastically, though you will still need to check the amperage available. If only a 20 amp circuit, you'd have 3600W available ... but then again, 240v circuits can be wired for as much as 50 amps, which would give you 12,000W to play with. :)

I hear the concern for not applying so much heat that you scorch the milk ... but the fact remains that you have to apply a certain amount of heat to raise the temperature of that much liquid in a certain span of time. So, apply less heat to multiple smaller batches, or apply more heat to one big batch, but spread it over a greater surface area and/or keep the milk moving so that it doesn't scorch. I don't believe there is any other way around this!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 08:09:28 PM by awakephd »
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Offline smolt1

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Re: Using a 26 gallon beer brewing kettle to make cheese.
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2014, 08:54:20 PM »
Another thought:  Using the double boiler idea, how about heating the milk PART WAY using hot water from your water heater ( to low 100 degrees ), then a heater element in the double boiler to continue to 140 degrees. This makes the change in temperature needed only 20 to 40 degrees instead of 100 degrees and would take much less time. A 120 V  1750 watt water heater element or a 240 V 2750 watt element are about $15 each.