Raw milk / Bath Milk

[shaneb]

And with a bit of airflow, now I can reach my 85% control target. 

Shane

[Frodage]

I read an article recently suggested that soft cheeses are the most likely to house pathogens and that it's not the age of the cheese that matters. It's the final pH of the cheese that matters. I went looking for the article, and wouldn't you know it, I can't find it. Does anyone have experience or evidence to suggest where the truth lies?

[TimT]

Frodage - I believe it's generally soft cheeses that tend to have pathogens, yes. I'd speculate one reason may simply be because in a more liquid environment bugs are more likely to spread. (In the hard cheeses of course you've already cultured your milk, and curdled it, and cooked and stirred the curds over a period of a few hours, thus getting the good cheese bacteria to spread right throughout).

I believe as you say it's the final pH that matters, but then that tends to go with age. The whole story of milk turning into cheese, and then cheese turning into, well, older cheese, is a story of acidification. Hence the oft quoted FDA rule about raw milk cheeses being fine if they're 60 days or older.

[shaneb]

It looks like a knee jerk reaction is being taken after these cases. Raw milk is to be either  made safe (I'm assuming they mean pasteurized) or a bittering agent added to make the raw milk unpalatable.

Here's the article.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-28/victorian-government-new-regulations-for-raw-milk/5990172

Shane

[ArnaudForestier]

This means that the smallest amount will make the individual recoil in horror

Wow.  They've achieved this with me, anyway.  Though I doubt they meant "bureaucrat pseudo-scientist" when they wrote "smallest amount."  I feel so badly for you and your compatriots, Shane, I really do.  I thought we had it bad.  Why bother with mere bittering - why not poison the milk outright, to really bring home the point?  I'm profoundly moved, to think of the devastation this will cause to such noble people, trying to do the right thing; to waste such precious oceans of nature's perfect food.

It's a shame on our species that practice, no matter how ridiculous or ill-founded, becomes paradigm.  How what should be patent ignorance becomes received wisdom. 

[shaneb]

Yeah, it is a true Nanny state. 

Shane

[awakephd]

Frodage - I believe it's generally soft cheeses that tend to have pathogens, yes. I'd speculate one reason may simply be because in a more liquid environment bugs are more likely to spread. (In the hard cheeses of course you've already cultured your milk, and curdled it, and cooked and stirred the curds over a period of a few hours, thus getting the good cheese bacteria to spread right throughout).

I believe as you say it's the final pH that matters, but then that tends to go with age. The whole story of milk turning into cheese, and then cheese turning into, well, older cheese, is a story of acidification. Hence the oft quoted FDA rule about raw milk cheeses being fine if they're 60 days or older.

Just to clarify, I think the problem is not the cheese being soft in a generic way, but specifically the type of cheese that gets liquid-y as it matures (Brie, Camembert, etc.). I was just reading in Gianaclis Caldwell's book about these cheeses, and learned that the molds working on the paste are responsible for a rise in pH, to the point that the cheese may even become neutral to slightly basic rather than acidic. This rise in pH is directly linked to the paste becoming liquid-y -- the protein structures become hydrophilic as the pH rises above a certain point.

[TimT]

I sent in a message to the minister responsible for this decision (Jane Garrett). Haven't got a response (it's still early, and it is a holiday period). It is definitely a knee jerk response - there's a federal inquiry into raw milk underway and she has said that they're not prepared to wait for the results of that inquiry before making a decision! Who needs facts when fear will do the job just as well? Basically I've asked her to reconsider her decision and noted that a better response would be public education - concluding that a government that does not respect its citizens to make responsible decisions for themselves would not get my vote.

The regulations haven't got through yet. They have to go through the lower house (in whatever form they finally take) and then go to the upper house, which, as fellow Victorians would be aware, are not controlled by Labor. Some astute emails to the relevant upper house ministers would be well worth it.

For what it's worth, Jane Garrett has said she is also going to take into consideration the requirements of cheesemakers for raw milk cheese. I doubt this means she wants raw milk to remain widely available in the way it is now and it will almost definitely favour big corporate cheesemakers, not amateurs like us. So it could be back to the old situation of farm gate deals, having a friend who knows a friend who owns a cow or a goat or whatever.

I'd like to gather any and all views on this so I might start another thread on it soon.

[shaneb]

Thanks Tim. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject unfortunately, so can't really make the argument. Maybe it is worthwhile starting a petition on change.org? They have a very big membership base and seem to make a lot of things happen.

Shane

[Schnecken Slayer]

At least SA hasn't had the same knee-jerk reaction, I'm in NSW and have never seen raw milk available anywhere in any form.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-29/raw-milk-laws-to-remain-the-same-in-sa/5991862

[shaneb]

That is good to hear about SA.

[Danbo]

Earlier in this discussion Mysost was up...

Just to clarify:

Myseost (also called Brunost / Brown Cheese) made of pure goat whey with added goat's milk and goat's cream is called Ekte Geitost (Genuine Goat-cheese) while myseost of cows whey with added cow's milk and cream and goat's milk is called Gudbrandsdalsost (Gudbrandsdal-cheese).

In real life our Norwegian neighbours (and people here in Denmark) often call this brown caramel-like cheasy stuff Myseost, Brunost or Geitost - regardless of the milk/whey being used.

:-) Danbo

[shaneb]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification Danbo. I might have to give it a go one day. Are they an acquired taste?

Shane

[Danbo]

Well... The consistency is a bit like semihard earwax... The taste is sweet and caramelized... I hope not to offend any Norwegians. ;-)

I didn't like it when I was a child. Now I like it a bit more but it is still not my favorite. 

I have made it a few times myself. The first time it just went crumbly and did not at all have the right consistency. The second time I added cream at the end of the process and continued heating until it had the right consistency.

Prepare to heat and stir for a couple of hours... The yield is not that high...

:-) Danbo

[shaneb]

Thanks. I think I'll pass then. Sounds like Vegemite. Only us Australians are crazy enough to eat it. Speaking of Vegemite, has someone tried incorporating it into a hard cheese make (maybe as a rub)? It goes really well with cheddar. 

Shane