Author Topic: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends  (Read 2788 times)

Offline thebelgianpanda

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Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« on: April 16, 2009, 05:09:49 PM »
While it's probably a fools errand to even be thinking about this, I was curious if anyone knew if it was possible to get individual strains of the cultures in meso/thermo/propioni/etc instead of the blend that you get from Choozit/Danisco or Abiasa?  The reason I ask is I noticed on wikipedia that a specific culture not normally part of mesophillic blends, Lactobacillus helveticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_helveticus) can help prevent bitter flavors during ripening.  Anyone got any ideas?


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Offline H.A.M.

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »
Ok, this came to mind...
http://www.dairyconnection.com/cultures.htm About the 8th culture down- LH series LH100 contains Lactobacillus helveticus and lactobacillus lactis. Intended to be used with other cultures, especially with a basic Streptococcus thermophilus.

Offline thebelgianpanda

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 07:09:36 PM »
I guess what I'm not fully grokking is why are they combined in the ways they are?  What do they do in the company of each other that is good/bad/necessary?  To illustrate this point, here are some examples according to Dairy Connection:

MA Type B: For use in soft goat cheeses, cottage cheeses, sour cream, cultured butter, fermented buttermilk and fresh cheeses, use

    * (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
    * (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
    * (LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
    * (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris

Flora Danica: Used for specialty cheeses, sour cream and cultured butter:
Goats milk cheese, Havarti, Baby Swiss, Gouda, Edam, Blue, use

    * (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
    * (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
    * (LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
    * (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris

They are the same list!



LH Series Thermo: Used in combination with TA culture for hard cheese, Italian types and Swiss.

Contains:

    * (LH) Lactobacillus helveticus
    * (LBL) Lactobacillus lactis

This is supposed to be thermophilic, but Lacrobacillus lactis is included in meso cultures as well.  What does that mean?  If U of Guelph says (and they do) that helveticus can be beneficial for cheddar, does that actually mean that LH series Thermophilic is actually, well, mesophilic?

Does it even matter?  I have no idea.  I just wish I could get my hands on individual strains with temperature growth charts and a general description of 'what they do' for each strain.  Then I would probably go on to make even worse cheese than I do now, but it would at least help answer some questions I have :)




Offline alvinco

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2009, 03:12:59 AM »
Hello! Im a newbie and I am still studying how bacteria works on cheese. The way I understand it the blending of thermophilic and mesophilic cultures are formulated to give flavour to the cheese upon heating until ripening. Think of your room as your cheese, the bacterias as colored lights, and the heat temperature as your switch to turn on which colored lights you want to light your room. 

Offline MrsKK

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2009, 07:41:41 AM »
I'm thinking that the blends are different (even when 2 cultures list the same strains on each), with differing amounts of the different strains, thus resulting in different flavors, etc. with the finished cheese product.

The products they are selling are formulated to give a specific result every time - a scientific approach to cheesemaking, so that home cheesemakers can get consistent results.


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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 12:31:23 AM »
Some cheese lean themselves to being able to be made from either mesophilic or thermophilic cultures. The recipes will vary somewhat but it will work.

Offline zenith1

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 09:43:23 PM »
A couple of thoughts-Lactobacillus helveticus in particular is used in grana style cheeses to make sure that all of the residual galactose is consumed(Lactobacillus helveticus is galactose and lactose positive). Thus it helps control he residual acid formation and any off coloring of the finished cheese. All the common bacteria used in cheese production offer specific characteristics in acid formation(and the speed that it occurs), gas formation((or none), diacytl formation(or none), and so on. The cheese maker uses the specific characteristics of the individual bacterias to craft a product in the manner of his needs. And bacterias have a specific range of temps in which they grow at their optimum rate. So by picking the specific bacteria(meso or thermo or both) the flavor and textures can be chosen. Many web sites offer these products packaged together as you have noted. I believe this is both from tradition and for ease of use.
Keith

Offline thebelgianpanda

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 10:12:47 PM »
Zenith, great info.  I am still such a newb grasping at the process I am sure I'm asking naive questions and making absurd assumptions.

As a home brewer though, I'm just a little surprised the lack of clarity on what the cultures have and exactly what they do.  Info from Whitelabs (in regards to home brewing) will give you a really clear, readable explanation of what many different strains will do with flavor, as well as temperature ranges and other factors.  I don't understand why that quality of info isn't as readily available for cheese makers.

Point in question--why are two packets of cultures advertised to do two different things, while their containers say the are comprised of the same bacteria.  Are we even sure they are listed in order of amount like ingredients on a cookie package?  I don't want their trade secrets, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while measuring checkpoints like pH are important, over the long term aging of a cheese it is only one factor.  And the measurement of diacytl, protein decay (I don't know if I'm using the right words here), and fat decay aren't really available to home cheese makers, so knowing what goes into the cheese I think is pretty darn importent.

I'm probably tilting at windmills, but I still feel the biggest factor I don't control or even understand are the cultures.

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 06:29:29 AM »
The detailed information about each culture is available. As a matter of fact we here in this forum have a section in the library dedicated to this type of information.
Here.

The problem is that most of these cultures are designed to be used by commercial factories and the detailed documentation is designed to be read by those involved in commercial cheesemaking.

But the information is out there.
Below is an example from the Cheddar cultures document.

Wayne A. Harris - in vino veritas

Offline zenith1

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 09:03:45 AM »
And you can go here for another chart. Wayne is correct, it is difficult do discern exactly what you need to accomplish your goals

http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/starterscultures.htm
Keith


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Offline thebelgianpanda

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 10:19:14 AM »
That is fantastic info, and I should have searched the forum more thoroughly before complaining :)

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 01:01:59 PM »
If you really want a custom blend, the big manufacturers like CH Hanson will prepare it for you and could even sell individual culture strains. Won't be cheap, though, because they will not do a small batch.

What if you contact the sales dept of a few companies and see if they'll help? Maybe you'll invent a new blend that works better with store bought milk just for home cheese makers :)
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Offline zenith1

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 01:22:37 PM »
 :) not to worry Panda- there is a lot of input and information here in the forum. We just need to look for it. We are all looking for that elusive perfect cheese!(at least to our own palates)
Keith

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Manufacctured Starter Cultures - Individual, Not Blends
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2009, 03:03:03 PM »
I found that Danisco makes a concentrated L Helveticus as their CHOOZIT™ TR160 product. Used for exactly what you want: accelerated ripening and prevention of bitterness.

Also see CHOOZIT™ Helv A LYO 2 D

http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/choozit%E2%84%A2-helv-lyo-2-d
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 03:31:38 PM by linuxboy »
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