Capturing cheese cultures in the wild!

[IllinoisCheeseHead]

.....the cultures that are native to the inside of a goat's udder......

I thought bacteria only enters the milk while it is in contact with the skin of the udder itself and not that it builds inside the milk glands.  My understanding is that any milk from a healthy animal will be sterile until it hits the tit canal and the udder skin.

[Tiarella]

.....the cultures that are native to the inside of a goat's udder......

I thought bacteria only enters the milk while it is in contact with the skin of the udder itself and not that it builds inside the milk glands.  My understanding is that any milk from a healthy animal will be sterile until it hits the tit canal and the udder skin.

I probably should have said that I know nothing about this and everything I say is speculation and musing from bits and pieces I've read.  When I read your post though I wonder whether the theory/fact that you share accounts for the level of various bacteria in raw milk. milk move through the test canal pretty quickly. A milking machine does back-wash the outside of the test with milk in between pulsations which is why udder and test cleaning is so critical. My goat milk never touches the outside of the teat because of my milking systems. This is a fun thread.........   Thanks to Tim for starting it!

[Al Lewis]

There is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that this is the way in which man first discovered things like beer, wine, and cheese.  Beer dates back to ancient Egypt and wine and cheese were probably about before that, although there doesn't seem to be much proof I know of off-hand.  Many things are being challenged these days with regards to what was discovered when. However, no doubt, someone left some milk in a container in a barn or a stable or tent somewhere and it picked up the cultures necessary to create a basic form of cream cheese.  We have a beginning. That, however, does not mean that those methods are better or preferred.  No doubt many people were sickened, and probably died, during the "exploration" of the creation of cheeses.  Many farmers in England use to wrap their blue cheese, read as Stilton, in straw while it aged so they could hide it in their barns.  Raw milk Stilton was outlawed for some time.  No doubt the French used similar methods to develop cultures and molds that could be used in cultivating cheeses.  Bottom line is we have now refined the process to make it more reliable and convenient.  You can try and go back and "re-discover" the cultures and molds, readily available, but be prepared to suffer the consequences as those that came before you did.  Bottom line is using old and tested recipes to recreate artisan cheeses with safe ingredients is a noble and fun activity.  Poisoning folks isn't much fun.  Think before you leap.

[TimT]

All these comments are great! Even the ones telling me I'm crazy and should in no way do what I am going to do!

[TimT]

I doubt milk is at any point free of bacteria. I stand to be corrected but I would have thought native lacto bacilli are one of the first lines of defense for milk, as it were - they move into this nutrient rich solution and take up all the available space before outside nasties can.

It would be difficult for me to get absolutely fresh raw milk (I could look into it though) that hasn't been chilled; best is probably from the store. (And I'd probably better do that soon; our Victorian government is trying to get rid of it.)

Here's the rough-and-ready plan for a culture: I get some raw milk. Take two samples; keep one at mesophilic LB temperatures, keep the other at thermophilic LB temperatures. And hopefully....

[Schnecken Slayer]

When I was brewing beer and making wines I read a lot of info that strongly stated that here in Australia you have to make sure everything is sanitised as the local wild yeasts and bacteria are far more dangerous than the European ones.

[IllinoisCheeseHead]

I doubt milk is at any point free of bacteria. I stand to be corrected.....

If you google it you will see multiple references stating that raw milk is sterile when inside the udder when the animal is healthy.  Regardless of how much the animal is cleaned before milking, there is beneficial bacteria happily waiting inside the tit ducts and it is then when it gets inoculated.  You can also see references of these facts in the book "Mastering Artesian Cheesemaking: The Ultimate Guide for home-scale and Market Products as well as in
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/t0218e/t0218e03.htm hosted by the FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization) as well as in in Milk Facts under http://www.milkfacts.info/Current%20Events/FAQ%20Page.htm. 

I know it sounds strange and I also thought it would be hard to believe when I first read it but seems to be a definitive fact.

I purchase raw Jersey cow's milk right where it is collected.  When they put it in my bottles it is still warm and I can tell you I have never seen such a clean facility.  They actually clean the udders and then use torches for a split second to burn any hair before the udder is connected to the milking machines.  It is pretty neat.

[TimT]

When I was brewing beer and making wines I read a lot of info that strongly stated that here in Australia you have to make sure everything is sanitised as the local wild yeasts and bacteria are far more dangerous than the European ones.

I've read stuff saying that, and I've read stuff stating the contrary position. I think it's prudent to be aware of local yeasts and bacteria as a danger. Of course I've had personal experience with infections - more in brewing than in cheesemaking, for whatever reason - but it hasn't been that extreme. I have heard stories of extreme experiences - wild infections that move in and nothing - no matter of cleaning and sterilising and changing equipment - will shift in. But these stories are few and far between. Personally I feel that they're no more danger than in Europe and the US, and you should simply be aware of the seasonal and environmental factors that will support or hinder your own projects and support or hinder infections. That includes both brewing *and* cheesemaking.

[Tiarella]

Al, you say poisoning folks isn't much fun.....I hope you haven't had direct experience that led to that conclusion.     I would think it would depend slightly upon which person/people you poisoned.  I would think that there are some politicians it might be downright jolly to have disappear due to cheese indulgence but no fear, it's not on my to-do list.  I do think you may be a bit harsh though.....I think there are specific things one can do to make this a safer experiment and I personally encourage folks to have at it.....with care.  Raw milk is safer (if cleanly produced and of course this is a generalization) to experiment with since it comes with bacteria that can out-compete the pathogens.  Watch your cheese for warning signs of dangerous contamination.  Try only a small piece and see how you feel and only then try  more to see how your body reacts to that and then consider offering to guests/friends if they are not immune system compromised.   I believe there are testing kits for e. Coli.  Pholia Farm's site talks about them somewhere. 

[Bantams]

Yes, milk in the udder is sterile.
Milk producers send in milk samples routinely that are hand milked from alcohol-wiped teats into sterile vials, then chilled and shipped.  The lab cultures the milk sample and the only result you want is negative for all bacteria.  ANY bacteria in the udder is a sign of mastitis and the SCC (somatic cell count) will raise immediately.  The lactic bacteria all come from the teat end, hands, the air, etc.

It's quite safe to play around with culturing raw milk for several reasons.  One, if it acidifies (which it most certainly will), you're quickly out of the danger zone for Salmonella, Listeria, Staph A, etc.  You know what cultured milk smells like?  You will know if it does not acidify.  Two, virtually every sample that has been contaminated by manure will display coliform growth by developing bubbles in a relatively short time.  If it bubbles, it's bad. 
So the only instance where your milk can turn into something tangy and nicely cultured would be straight lactic-acid bacteria culturing, with no interference from pathogens and coliforms. 

The best way to develop your own culture would be to set a container of warm raw milk out and let sit until it curdles.  Take a spoonful of that, and add it to a fresh warm jar of milk.  Let culture.  It should happen a lot sooner this time.  Repeat once more.  Then use it in a cheese recipe.  The only problem is that you're restricting yourself to one certain set of cultures.  You then have to find out which cheese should be made from that culture. 
Also, if you make a lot of cheese already, using bought cultures, those are the cultures that you will most likely end up propagating anyway.  They tend to jump around.

One more thing... it's not uncommon for coliforms to show up if your milk isn't pristine, unfortunately. 

[TimT]

That's great advice, thanks! I'm writing from Australian in the southern hemisphere where it's winter - so temp control may be required. That's excellent and helpful information about the various infections that cheese can get.

[Al Lewis]

Al, you say poisoning folks isn't much fun.....I hope you haven't had direct experience that led to that conclusion.     I would think it would depend slightly upon which person/people you poisoned.  I would think that there are some politicians it might be downright jolly to have disappear due to cheese indulgence but no fear, it's not on my to-do list.   

Seems we have like minds my dear!! XO

[Tiarella]

Al, you say poisoning folks isn't much fun.....I hope you haven't had direct experience that led to that conclusion.     I would think it would depend slightly upon which person/people you poisoned.  I would think that there are some politicians it might be downright jolly to have disappear due to cheese indulgence but no fear, it's not on my to-do list.   

Seems we have like minds my dear!! XO

 

[qdog1955]

Tiarella----I usually try to avoid confrontation---but when I see suggestions that can be very dangerous---a response is necessary----tasting for safety is a bad idea unless you are willing to wait several days for the results-----from the Mayo clinic----Foodborne botulism

Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism typically begin between 18 and 36 hours after the toxin gets into your body, but can range from a few hours to several days, depending on the amount of toxin ingested. Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism include:

    Difficulty swallowing or speaking
    Dry mouth
    Facial weakness on both sides of the face
    Blurred or double vision
    Drooping eyelids
    Trouble breathing
    Nausea, vomiting and abdominal cramps
    Paralysis
Another example---some Amanita mushrooms.
  Yet what makes some amanita mushrooms so poisonous? Certain species of Amanita contain amanitin, a deadly amatoxin.

Amatoxins are some of the most lethal poisons found in nature. These toxins work by slowly shutting down the liver and kidneys. Often the victim will appear sick at first, and then seem to get better. Unfortunately the amatoxins are still at work, and death may occur anywhere from a few days to a week after ingestion.

   Even a small ingestion can cost you a liver transplant. Taste testing for safety issues may be a very bad idea.
Qdog
 

[Tiarella]

qdog, that doesn't feel like a confrontation to me.  It feels like the addition of information you have that I didn't have and I appreciate it.  I was relaying the advice that I've seen elsewhere on the forum at various times.  It's good to have your advice on this topic so thank you!  Sooooooo, are there ways to test a cheese?  without expensive lab tests?