Author Topic: Brie and Camembert slip skin  (Read 10531 times)

Nabil

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Brie and Camembert slip skin
« on: May 03, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »
I am an old member but this is my first post

i need a why for Brie and Camembert slip skin , see attached picture

Cheese Head

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 03:18:20 PM »
Hello Nabil, great to see your first post.

Excellent question, I believe the common term is like you say Slip Skin or Toad Skin or Peau De Crapaud. I have had the same problem on my last two batches where I also added Geotrichum candidum. My pictures of dramatic #7 here and less dramatic #8 here. So I am also very interested in this. Fellow member Likesspace had similar problem here, I'm 99% sure he uses Geo. Fellow member Captain Caprine had a good post on it here.

I've done some reading in "Cheese Problems Solved", to summarize:
1) "Toad-skin" defects originate from uncontrolled development of specific strains of Geotrichum candidum and is characterised by a web of ridges at the cheese surface.
2) This organism is able to produce arthrospores which form chains, which when present at high density, join together and create ridges by pushing one against the other, causing the development of "toad skin".
3) Very soon after manufacture, yeasts grow on the surface forming a dense layer about 200 um thick; G. candidum appears just after these yeasts but its growth is very sensitive to salt.
4) In the past, G. candidum caused concern to cheese technologists because of its proteolytic activity which is associated with the "toad skin"-like surface of the cheese. However, it is now known that through its enzymatic systems, it also plays a major role in the development of flavour.
5) Now, selection of strains of G. candidum that do not cause "toad skin", and use of low inoculum levels (down to 25 spores/ml), have led to a widespread use of this species. In order to improve the organoleptic quality of Camembert made from pasteurised milk, selected strains of G. candidum, yeasts and coryneform bacteria are generally added to the cheesemilk, giving a product closer to traditional Camembert, and closer to the expectations of most consumers.
6) The use of dry salting may stop the growth of G. candidum for a while. Geotrichum likes quite high temperatures (25C), and low ripening temperatures may hinder its growth.
7) If Geotrichum is added to the milk for its positive effects, the choice of the strain and the level of inoculum have a major impact on the properties of the resulting cheese. The inoculation of G. candidum should be about 25 spores/ml in the milk, that is to say about 100 times less than the level of inoculation of Penicillium camemberti.

So in summary:
1) G. candidum adds beneficial taste, colour, odour and feel properties to cheese.
2) "Toad skin" is formed by unwanted G. candidum strains.
3) Manufactured G. candidum is made to minimalize the bad strains, but inoculation is best below 25 spore/ml (1/100 of P camemberti).
4) Dry salting and ripening temperatures <25C/77F will hinder G. candidum growth.
5) As an aside, you will get better taste, colour, odour and texture properties is als add years and corymeform bacteria.

Where I had this problem:
1) I used G candidum, about the same amount as P. camemberti (few puffs of each directly into the milk), which looks like way way to much (I don't know the spores/gram concentration of either, but I think one to one is way too much).
2) I had ripening temperatures of 33>30C before adding rennet with G. candidum in the milk.
3) I dry salted (inhibits excessive G. candidum growth) my Camemberts in batches #7 & #8 by sprinkling directly on the top and bottom, not sides. My worst one in my batch #7 looked just like your picture with minimal slip skin on top and most around sides.

So I think those are my three major causes, ripening temp is function of recipe, but key is too much G candidum resulting in slip skin especially around sides where I didn't dry salt. This reasonably agrees with Caprine's post.

Questions to you, to help confirm this diagnosis:
  • Did you use G. candidum?
  • If so, did you use lots or little G. candidum?
  • Did you dry salt?
  • Your slip skin appears mostly around the sides, did you dry salt top and bottom but not sides?
  • What was your ripening temperature?

Hope helps and looking forward to your reply . . . John.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 03:24:56 PM by John (CH) »

Nabil

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 06:53:17 AM »
Questions to you, to help confirm this diagnosis:

    * Did you use G. candidum? NO
    * If so, did you use lots or little G. candidum? N/A
    * Did you dry salt? YES
    * Your slip skin appears mostly around the sides, did you dry salt top and bottom but not sides? I salt dried all sides
    * What was your ripening temperature? 20Cthen 14c , it didnot reach the ripping stage yet

I guess my problem is (and yours is):
this is a problem of not draining or drying well. a lot of moisture. The cheese needs to be dried until no visible surface moisture remains. This is a moisture problem.

forget about the G. candidum for now, because my friend has years of very successful Brie/Camembert without G. candidum, and never faced this problem, so when i asked him, he answered as above ..

thanks for ur help, and i hope i added something good here to u...
P.S i saw ur posts, u wrap in waxed papers and a lot of moisture remains ... i guess so

Offline finewino

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 02:36:30 AM »
John, sorry I could not post here until today, after receiving your PMs.  I will share my observations/opinions here for what they are worth, and I will comment here on your camembert #7 and #8 as well as Nabils post because they do have a couple of things in common.
 
I will also say that while I have had a lot of success making these types of cheese, I am still learning.  My comments here are based on my personal experience as well as information I received through a brief but very productive relationship with a professional cheesemaker last summer.
 
My very first Camembert attempts looked a lot like John's #7 and #8.  Nabil's cheese pictured in this thread is a bit different, in that it has what appears to be a strong bloom of P. candidum, but a slip skin with runny edges and a firm middle.
 
Nabil definitely "hit the nail on the head" regarding the moisture issue.  It is important that the moisture content of the cheese be reduced to the proper level before the humidity is raised to encourage the bloom of P. candidum.  As Nabil said, it is important that there be no "wetness" of the cheese.  I accomplish this by flipping the cheese at least once/ day, and putting paper towel below the mat to absorb excess moisture (wicking it away from the cheese.)  Sometimes this takes an addtional 2-3 days after unmolding and salting.
 
I have found that my best results for mold bloom occur at a temperature of about 9-10C (48-50F).  At higher temperatures, the mold tends to grow quickly and the enzymes begin to soften the outer layer of the cheese too quickly.  That, along with the quicker mold growth and a thicker rind can lead to slip skin.  When the P. candidum blooms at a lower temperature, it grows more slowly and the rind doesn't thicken up as much.  I think that salt and Geotrichum also play a role in this.  Once the mold begins to bloom, I flip the cheeses every day because it tends to grow more quickly on the top than the bottom.  As soon as the mold coverage is complete, I wrap and put in the fridge at 3-5C (38-40F).
 
John, your last attempts could not develop a good bloom of P. candidum because under the bowls as they were, there was effectively 100% humidity.  High moisture + high humidity + no air = the result you see.
 
Your (John) info on Geotricum candidum was interesting.  With regard to whether or not it is necessary, I believe it is based on what I have read and what I have learned from cheesemaking books and professionals.  That is a different issue from whether or not you need to inoculate your cheese with Geotricum.  It is my understanding that Geotricum species occur naturally in the environment, and in an area where cheeses are made on a regular basis the dominant strain will occur naturally without the need to actively inoculate the cheese.  I would expect, then, that in a cheese cave where Camembert is regularly brought up there would be sufficient native Geotricum to serve the purpose.
 
One other comment.  I had thought for many years that the ammonia notes in some mold ripened cheeses, particularly Camembert, were part of the natural characteristic of the cheese.  I have found that if I am patient and ripen at lower temperatures, there is virtually no ammonia character at any stage of the life of the cheese.  Once it is there, it is there to say.  It is my understanding that it is the byproduct of proteolytic reactions that occur at higher temperatures.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.  -John Kenneth Galbraith

Nabil

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 06:12:45 AM »
Thanks FineWino for your great tips . do we know each other in other forum?

regarding the picture, i used the saint-maure method as it is goat milk, i let it 24 hours after rennet @ 20C to develop acid and coagulate, then i trnasfered it to the molds, i think this way u will end up with very high moisture which u will not end...

i made new wheels by cutting in pot and trnasfer just after 60 minutes (clean break) from adding rennet, and let it drain in molds... i can see that the texture of the cheese before the mold start to grow is totally different ....

Offline finewino

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 03:51:41 PM »
Yes, Nabil.  We do know each other in the other forum.  I also saw your post there.
 
When you let the acid develop for 24 hours as you described, you are making a lactic cheese.  I do this also but the curd is much more fragile and takes several days to drain properly.  I have read that it can be pre-drained in cheesecloth and then molded...I plan to try this in the future.
 
Technically, this is not a Camembert, but more like a St. Marcellin.  When it is inoculated with B. linens and washed, that is how you make Epoisses (a very challenging cheese.)  These are very good cheeses, but the pate will have a different texture.
 
Camembert is coagulated with rennet, and is molded at a much higher pH.  The acidity continues to develop while the cheeses drain and are flipped in the molds.  I have tried various methods for coagulating and molding.  I am finding I prefer cutting curds, wait 5 min, stir for 5 min, wait awhile (5-10 min) drain excess whey and mold.  I have tried temps from 30-32C (86-90F) and have begun to work in the higher temp range as the moisture level is lower after molding and the cheese is less runny.  I usually do my first flip after 4-6 hours, and then flip regularly until the cheeses have been on the molds for 12-24 hours.  When the cheeses can hold their shape out of the hoops (no bulging), I remove the hoops and salt.
 
Hope this is helpful.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.  -John Kenneth Galbraith

Nabil

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2009, 08:00:43 AM »
regarding lactic cheese , i added rennet also , but ur point is very right about need to be drained a lot lot lot more, it takes days and a cheese cloth under the mat ..!!!

i made new batch similar to what u said but i salted the curds in whey, believe me i think it is better result... adding 80 G salt to 3 liter milk after u drain 1/3 of the whey... i will let u know about the results..

regarding what u said bellow, about working in higher temp, what do u mean ? do u mean rennet @ higher temp? over 32? what do u mean by the cheese less runny?

do u add the mold before rennet? or u spray ? for me i do add a skin of a previous cheese over it.
 

Offline finewino

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 04:22:30 AM »
I also drain my lactic cheeses with a paper towel under the mat for a few days (changing the paper towel every day).
 
Regarding temperatures, I sused to ripen, rennet and cut my camembert at 30C, but I have found that the cheese is less runny if I do it at 32C instead of 30 C...less moisture after draining. 
 
The idea of salting the curds before molding is interesting. 
 
I usually add the mold cultures to the milk and dry salt afterwards.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.  -John Kenneth Galbraith

Tropit

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Re: Brie and Camembert slip skin
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 03:25:13 PM »
I know, I know...this is an old post, but this is such a common problem...

I have used Geo. candidum many times in the past with great results, but this last batch all had toad skin to some degree.  It could be my cave temp, or humidity, but I'm starting to think that maybe I bought an, "unwanted strain," of Geo. candidum, since all of my cheeses, regardless of recipe, were affected.  I don't want to say where I got it from, but I'm curious if anyone else is having the same experience.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 02:10:18 PM by Tropit »