Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?

[OzzieCheese]

Yes, much of this discussion thread is not actually based on David's book.  I recommend this book.  He makes cheese making simple, safe and accessible to more people.  David's book is mostly recipes.

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I too recently bought Davids Book and I'd have to disagree with the quote above as the recipes don't really appear until half way through the book.  I am a little disappointed on the scientific details about Kefir - I would have loved more to support his exclusive use of it.  The rhetoric around the culture companies is a little wearing and his Raw milk position restated soo many times - I get it !!  I do however applaud his view on the "Rights to Raw milk" where like any food source that is abused will bite you.  But, I do think there is merit in his approach - Not that I'd EVER get to make "vells" it was interesting.   I also would have liked a bit more information on the Biology of Kefir. 

Is the book going to change how I like to make cheese ? No ! is it going change my view of using DVI Cultures - not really, though, it is nice to have an alternative.  Will it change my appreciation of what I make - Absolutely NOT ! I think we as Home Cheesemakers have an amazing pastime - some of us are lucky enough to make a living from cheese.  What does it do for me ?  Well quite a bit... It does show what happens when using raw milk to make cheese.  It also has re-ignited my yearning to find a source of raw milk to try some of these.  The fact that I like PC and GC on my 'Malemberts' and the cultures I use in my Cheddars that I know will reach a certain pH, in a certain time at a certain Temperature so that I can successfully age them, brings glad feelings to my heart.  One of the things that David skirts around it that the use of DVI cultures, pH meters and thermometers make the process somewhat repeatable and at around about $25 a KG (that's using the best milk, IMO, Melany Milk and cream) I want to have some semblance of control that I can repeat.  From my point of view as a Home cheese maker, couldn't give two hoots about Phage or the lack of biodiversity of cultures.  Am I sad that there are cheeses and processes we have lost due to 'Industry' ? Yes I am but I'm pragmatic enough to accept that change is inevitable.

I look in my cheese cave and I know what is there and I am happy.. The romantic in me would love to have access to raw Goat and Cows' and have room to leave cultures growing on my 'Counter' and an optimal "cool and Humid" cheese cave and be totally organic.  But the reality is, I can't, it's Queensland where its hot, humid and I can't get raw milk and the only place I get milk is from a supermarket - not that I'm happy with that, but it the best I can do - at the moment !!   

So, where from here.??  There is a lot to recommend in the book and I get the most out of it from the point of the Cheese making process where it's not something to be afraid of.  There are other ways to the same end.   

I wonder why there are so few cases of contamination in Europe where commercial raw milk cheese is not banned

Answer: Distance.  Distance from Farm to consumer

I am somewhat bewildered by the fear of raw milk products that many North Americans have

Australians as well. Growing up I only ever had raw milk even in the 1970's as I grew up in Central Queensland where the local Dairyman would deliver absolutely farm fresh milk every morning to the front door and the Boarding School in Lismore I went to had their own herd so until I left High School in '77 all I ever had was raw milk.. I am still here and by all accounts reasonably healthy.  So what did we all do before that ??  Bought Local, that's what ! Local farmers supplied local households. 

There is a lot in this book, 'Big Culture' and 'raw milk' diatribe aside, that I have yet to digest and yes things to learn and I do think it is worth the investment.

-- Mal

[lovinglife]

I am a total beginner with my own source of fresh raw goats milk (5 milking does) so I love the raw milk cheese directions.  I have my kefir grains coming in the mail as we speak and because of his book I am eager to try all the different cheeses.  Before, I started with the cheese kits for practice and I just wasn't getting it.  My cheese always seemed tasteless to me, I didn't do the aged complicated ones though.  With his book I can't wait to tackle all the different styles, have my wine cooler temperature all set and already have 3 different types aging using what cultures I already had.  I actually agree with him on the raw milk though, just last week there was a recall on contaminated cucumbers, hmm not in raw milk but veggies, another reason I garden! 

Anyway, I enjoy the book and it has me excited to explore the are to cheese making.

[Gregore]

Thanks mal

I already use raw milk , but I would like for some one who  does not use or can not get it and who also has kefir to try a cheese they know well and can repeat consistently  to try adding a little kefir to the mix and see if it really can bring back some of the flavor profiles of raw milk.

I think if David's theory turned out to be correct and it improved the milk close to raw flavors  it would be a huge change for the home cheese maker.

[OzzieCheese]

@G.  I think you misunderstood, I "Get' his view on raw milk - just didn't think it needed mentioning every page ! , I cant buy it myself - Illegal in Australia.  I've read the book through twice and I think there is a middle ground with big business at one end and Mr Asher at the other, there is a lot of room in between.  One of those things that I can appreciate is the diversity Kefir brings to the game.  check this Australian site http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#order - it's a long page but worth the read and about 2/3 the way through the Author lists the various cultures and yeasts that they have identified in Kefir. And there are some I can't get as smaller culture packs. Of the large list I am most interested in these - as well a the usual cast of players..

Kluyveromyces marxianus
Kluyveromyces lactis var. lactis
Geotrichum candidum - yep Malemberts here I come...
Debaryomyces hansenii

The continual care of the Kefir grains is required and for a household that doesn't use that much milk and I only make cheese 2 or 3 times a month, I'm wondering whether it's warranted - time will tell on that one.  I plan to do the following.

1. Get some Kefir grains apparently the 'Culture packs' (fake Kefir -  David calls it) don't have the diversity or behave quite the same way as the grains.
2. Make two Cheeses at the batch loads that I know very well - My Malembert (I will be adding P. candidum) and a Caerphilly using just the Kefir as the starter and the milk I use all the time. These mature reasonably quickly and I know the process. 

Now, as I'm a details guy, I will use my pH meter because it like to ... and I will use a Thermometer - cos again I like to know these things

I'll keep you all posted.

There is a lot of good information in the book, how it translates into what materials I can get is yet to be seen.

-- Mal

[Gregore]

Mal , I agree with you  there is the room for both sides to have a place at the table.

And I also think that it takes the 2 extremes to help the middle feel comfortable with their position .  If people like david did not exist we would be the extreme

I certainly look forward to hearing about  your cheese makes with and with out kefir.

I have only ever made cheese with  raw milk so I have no way of knowing if the kefir improves the cheese in any way .

I think I mentioned some time back that I am from near where David lives and I know that they are really very far off the grid type of people living there , if you do not own a boat or know some one who does  then you do not get there .

As far as making kefir goes you can do as little as 1 cup a day for your make and just drink it as a " health drink" as my wife would call it when she hands it to me each day.  You might even get away with a smaller amount each day for your make .

[OzzieCheese]

Yep - I agree and I think we are a little bit extreme .  David's book maybe just shifts me back towards a little left of centre.  I do envy you with you raw milk availability <sigh!> I wish it were so here - maybe. I've had good responses of my Cams so maybe this method might just make them a little better. I will certainly post my efforts with Davids methods.

-- Mal

[StuartDunstan]

Mal, I don't know if you want to go down this road, but there are options available to purchase raw milk in South-East Queensland in the form of "bath milk". A lot of health food and organic shops sell it in bottles. I know it's a bit controversial, but the option is there. Also, I used to be a part of a herd share at Eden Hope Organic Dairy, which is out at Gympie. I was then able to legally order raw milk through Food Connect. I don't think you need to be a part of the herd share anymore - you can just order it, though it is now called bath milk as well. Still, it's pretty local, and given the extra hoops they have to jump through for organic certification, I reckon you could be pretty confident that it would be fine for drinking and cheesemaking.

I moved recently down to Wongawallan (near Tamborine Mountain), and have been delighted to discover there is a very small local dairy called Wallan Vale Dairy that sells its jersey milk in bottles in local shops (also as bath milk). I got in touch with the owner, and he said they do sell direct from the dairy. So when I get back from my trip to Japan, I intend to pay him a visit and get some fresh raw milk for cheesemaking.

[awakephd]

Mal, I look forward to your experiments!

On the kefir, and keeping it going at a slow rate -- I have been making kefir for six months or so. I started with around 1-2 Tbs of grains, sent through the mail, twice -- the first batch of grains never seemed to produce the right taste and texture, so I tried again. The second batch of grains has worked well. It takes a bit of time and patience to work up to larger batches, but I now have enough grains to brew a gallon at a time. Now, it would be possible to brew a gallon every day -- but while I love the taste and texture, and drink some every day, I am not drinking enough to use up a gallon a day! (Not to mention going broke buying milk!) So what I do is to "slow brew" my kefir. I describe one approach here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14907.0.html, but since then, I've changed my approach a bit. Now, when I strain out a new batch of kefir, I put the grains in the gallon jar with just around a quart of milk, and put it straight back in the fridge. I let that brew for a week or so, and then when I begin to get low on my drinking stock, I pull it out, fill it up with milk, and leave it on the counter for 3-4 hours. Then back in the fridge, and the next day it is thick and delicious!

Note that this slow-brew approach is not something I've seen anywhere else. I'd be surprised if others haven't come up with something similar, but the point is this: I have no idea what the implications are of this approach for the diversity of the cultures or even the safety of the final product. But I can attest that it gives me a wonderful result!

By the way, I'd gladly send you some of my grains ... but I'm doubtful about how well they would travel across the sea! Probably better if you can find a local source ...

[OzzieCheese]

@A Thanks for the kind offer.  I'm pretty sure it would get stopped by customs however..

@S Thanks for the tip.  Having to go to the US in October will curtail my Cheese making for a bit but will certainly follow up on you tip when I return... BTW I'm just across the river in Cornubia.

I think that Davids book, while not a bad book all said and done, doesn't quite give me the confidence that it will produce cheeses that which I have come to enjoy but I'm willing try.  You never know if you never give it a go !

-- Mal