Author Topic: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.  (Read 12655 times)

Stinky

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2015, 09:40:56 PM »
Doubt it. I think you'll be alright. My pH was higher than it needed to be. Iiiiif no mold grows and it tastes terrible, well, we can analyze it from there.

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 12:42:24 AM »
Hi !!  Welcome home !!

Not to try and confuse here is how I make mine and they turn out nicely and consistently.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14727.0.html

There are many ways to Gooey delights, this is but one.

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Shalloy

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 09:04:30 AM »
Thanks nce again gents.

Looking at your curds Ozzie mine looked exactly the same so I feel a lot more confident now.

After filling my hoops I turned them an hour later then again an hour after that but had to go to bed as it was 1am and I was stuffed so didn't turn them again until the morning when I salted them.

They are now in a plastic tub sitting on a mesh false bottom and have placed this on a shelf in my garage.  Humidity is at 93% and temps here n Melbourne are around 11-14C during the day, so spot on without needing temp control.  (In fact this morning they had dropped to 9C so I put the box inside as I had the heater running overnight) they were 13C when I got home..

Besides that Although I have 2 fridges in the garage one has a beer fermenting and the other is full of salami and pancetta ageing so I have no choice.

Tonight when I got home from work I flipped them and the bottom side was wet with visible water on it.  Should they still be this wet? I'm not sure if I should take the lid off and let them dry out some more or not??

What do you suggest??

I also think I've over salted them using 1 teaspoon of salt per side and another pinch or two on the edges of the wheel.

Stinky

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 01:26:17 PM »
Let it dry out.

Offline Gregore

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 02:09:51 PM »
I give you a cheese for your desire to make perfect cheese ,but.


I think you are sweeting this too much , assuming you do not get late blowing, you ...WILL ....have edible cheese.

Will it be great cheese   hard to say .  There are many hundreds of types of cheese around the world most come from slight changes in the making , and most taste quite yummy .

One maker here on the forum who's name I forget , even  experimented by leaving his cheese out on a shelf on the porch for the whole affinage and I do not think it was cold.

I always tell my friend when they ask how hard is it to make cheese .....

" making cheese is easy , making good cheese is hard and making the same good cheese every time is very hard "



To,steal the line from geico , " Cheese is so easy even a cave man can do it"

And they probably did.

I should add every one of us went through the same worry about our little babies in the beginning , heck  what am I saying most of us still worry .

Shalloy

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 09:12:40 PM »
Haha yes your dead right Gregore I am sweating it a little too much. But the first few cheeses I attempted a few years ago were complete disasters and I really want this one to at least be edible.

My mistakes last time were as follows.

1. Added 20 mls of calcium instead of 2 mls because I couldn't fit my syringe into the bottle so poured some out into a small cup and ended up pouring this cup into the cheese by mistake. (I now have smaller syringe)

2. Turned the element on my double boiler up instead of down and the curds hit 50C before I realized. (I now use a temp controller set at 32C)

3. Didnt let the curds sit long enough because my recipe wasn't clear in the instructions.

4. Scraped the blue mould off my cheese as per the recipe, which made them too thin and they dried out. (Since then Ive read on here not to do that)

5. Forgot to add the PC culture to my cams (I sprayed them and they developed a white mould but still ended up too dry and hard in the middle.)

So now that I've learnt from those mistakes last time I want to try and get these to age nicely.

So to dry them out, should I just leave the lid off the box completely and turn them morning and night until I don't see any water on the surface? I must admit I'm very paranoid they are either going to be too dry or end up too wet. There seems to be a fine line between this.  Last night I just opened the lid slightly and moved them to the laundry where it was slightly warmer than the garage because the heater was on all night. This morning they were 14C and 88% RH. And when I turned them the mat was wet and the surface had water on it again.

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2015, 01:56:38 AM »
Hi Salting is a bit of an art if dry salting - there is description on how I do it - work for me.. Some like brining them - both methods work.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13412.0.html

and 'Toob' of me doing it.


Draining: I just let mine drain naturally and I leave them overnight before salting anyway and they are quite damp, but I wouldn't worry too much.  I wipe out their ripening containers every day until they fuzz over and then every two days after that. You will still and moisture in the container.

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Stinky

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2015, 02:33:24 AM »
Quote
1. Added 20 mls of calcium instead of 2 mls because I couldn't fit my syringe into the bottle so poured some out into a small cup and ended up pouring this cup into the cheese by mistake. (I now have smaller syringe)
Won't kill the cheese. Might make the ripening longer, but won't kill it.
Quote
2. Turned the element on my double boiler up instead of down and the curds hit 50C before I realized. (I now use a temp controller set at 32C)
Okay, that? More so.

Quote
4. Scraped the blue mould off my cheese as per the recipe, which made them too thin and they dried out. (Since then Ive read on here not to do that)
If scraping off the top layer makes them that thin, increase the height.
Quote
5. Forgot to add the PC culture to my cams (I sprayed them and they developed a white mould but still ended up too dry and hard in the middle.)
Spraying works just as well. It even is cheaper, as you can keep a spray bottle with geo and pc in it for several years if there is not salt or sugar in there.
Quote
So now that I've learnt from those mistakes last time I want to try and get these to age nicely.
Wise.
Quote
So to dry them out, should I just leave the lid off the box completely and turn them morning and night until I don't see any water on the surface? I must admit I'm very paranoid they are either going to be too dry or end up too wet. There seems to be a fine line between this.  Last night I just opened the lid slightly and moved them to the laundry where it was slightly warmer than the garage because the heater was on all night. This morning they were 14C and 88% RH. And when I turned them the mat was wet and the surface had water on it again.
I would just pull 'em out and let it dry on the counter during the daytime, and at night if it's not dry yet just crack the lid a little more so it's not quite as humid as necessary.

Offline Gregore

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2015, 05:01:17 AM »
I suspect that  in the past the effect of excessive moisture was more easily controlled by the cheeses being affinaged  on wood our  little plastic mini caves really are no substitute for a cave and a wood board , but it is the best we can do usually .

. My reblochons some times need a little wipe with a paper towel for the first few days to help them dry off .

I have never made a PC cheese  only a geo  so I do not know if the paper towel thing will be bad but I would suspect it will not hurt it at all .

In another post else where  there is talk about the new book by david Asher  ,  if it is in your budget you might want to look into it  as it will help you understand how easy cheese really is  and his kefir style starters are way easier to control the ph than DVI


Offline awakephd

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2015, 02:39:35 PM »
As for whether you used too much salt -- how many gallons did you use to make the 4 cams (I'm assuming 4, based on the pictures). 1 tsp per side sounds potentially high to me, but it all depends on how big the cams are.

As for whether the curds get too acidic -- not to worry: Cams are supposed to get quite acidic in the making stage in order to develop properly. As I understand it (from reading Caldwell's excellent book), the high acid allows some of the calcium (? I think?) to dissolve and leave with the whey. Then the geo begins to grow and reduce the acid levels on the surface; then the PC begins to grow and further reduces the acid levels. Over time, the action of the geo/PC results in the pH rising to relatively high levels (i.e., relatively low acid), working inward from the outside. When the pH rises high enough, the curd changes into the gooey texture of a cam. If the calcium (?) stayed too high, it would hinder this process.

Or something like that. I need to go back and re-read that section ...
-- Andy

Stinky

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2015, 03:47:39 PM »
As for whether you used too much salt -- how many gallons did you use to make the 4 cams (I'm assuming 4, based on the pictures). 1 tsp per side sounds potentially high to me, but it all depends on how big the cams are.

As for whether the curds get too acidic -- not to worry: Cams are supposed to get quite acidic in the making stage in order to develop properly. As I understand it (from reading Caldwell's excellent book), the high acid allows some of the calcium (? I think?) to dissolve and leave with the whey. Then the geo begins to grow and reduce the acid levels on the surface; then the PC begins to grow and further reduces the acid levels. Over time, the action of the geo/PC results in the pH rising to relatively high levels (i.e., relatively low acid), working inward from the outside. When the pH rises high enough, the curd changes into the gooey texture of a cam. If the calcium (?) stayed too high, it would hinder this process.

Or something like that. I need to go back and re-read that section ...

As I understand it, calcium phosphate occurs in fairly constant levels according to the pH. If there is more calcium phosphate, there will be a higher pH. Take, for example, Swiss cheeses. Not very much whey is expelled from them, as they go straight from the vat to the mold. This means they have more Calcium phosphate, and a higher pH before pressing and brining. With cheddared cheeses, the cheddaring process releases much more whey, so you salt the curds once it hits the pH you want there. Those cheeses have a lower calcium phosphate content.

With Camemberts, as far as I remember, you start out with a lower pH. This is a nicer environment for the Pc. So it starts growing, and having fun. Then something, I can't quite remember what it is right now, starts getting drawn out from the center. The PC produces ammonia, which gets drawn into the center. Since ammonia is basic, the pH of the cheese increases. At some point, the previously hydrophobic bonds in the cheese start attaching to water, and the cheese gets soft.

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2015, 01:56:08 AM »
Mate- Spot on !  The re-solubilisation occurs as the pH increases - it starts on the outside works in, and the ammonia production and water vapour is caused by the moulds.

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Shalloy

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2015, 10:30:19 AM »
I used 7.5 litres of milk which is 1.98 U.S. Gallons so nowhere near 4 gallons. The cheese are around 4 inches diameter and 1.5 inches high and range from 280 grams to 311 grams in weight.

I've been turning them daily and blotting the moisture that appears on the bottom. I've noticed a reduction in the amount of water that appears though..
I kept the lid off the container and had them in the garage at around 10-13C.  And 85% RH.

Now that I've kegged my latest brew, (a very nice Rye IPA) I have a fridge spare so have put the container in the fridge at 10C. The humidity has climbed to 95%.

I checked out your toob on salting Ozzie cheese.  I thought you had to salt one side and let it rest for awhile but your method seems a lot easier.  Ive also purchased  the ebook version of that book you suggested Gregore to read on my iPad.  Wasn't cheap at $26 but Lots of good information in there.

I'm still paranoid about either keeping these cheeses too wet or too dry. Should I be keeping them out of the fridge with the lid off until I see no visible water on them when I turn them over?  As I mentioned the amount I see has reduced considerably but there is still a thin film of water when I turn them. 

Thanks for all your help gents. 

Shalloy

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 10:42:53 AM »
Just to add since moving them to the fridge at 10C I've noticed a build up of moisture in the container and lid which I never got when they were just sitting in the garage at 12-13C. So Ive opened the lid slghtly.

Offline Gregore

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Re: Another attempt at cheese after 2 years. Camembert.
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2015, 02:41:21 PM »
Yes you should be getting moisture on the inside of the lid small droplets like fine mist is good. If they get too big keep the lid ajar . 

glad you got the book I think by the time you are finished reading you will feel much more confident.

It still seems like you are on track with your cheeses , the curds looked good and the timing on all that you have done so far is not off by any factor that would lead to a uneatible cheese .

So put your cheese eating bib on and get your crackers ready .