Author Topic: Accidental washed rind?  (Read 2120 times)

craigbayne

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Accidental washed rind?
« on: August 25, 2015, 06:53:58 PM »
Hi all,

first post on here. I've made my first ever two cheeses - both cheddar style hard cheeses. Once pressed, while the cheeses were being matured, one of them developed a fair bit of mould - some pink mould, some fuzzy mould and some blue mould. To be honest, I wasn't able to keep them at the correct temperature (they were probably at about 18C).

Anyway, I scrubbed the mould off and washed this cheese pretty liberally with brine. In the end, I probably did this just about every day for a week. I've now waxed this cheese and it's sitting in my fridge.

The second cheese didn't develop just as much mould, but it was maturing beside the first one so I washed it down too. It's now developing a bit of a white mould all over it which I've more or less let develop. Not sure if I should get rid of it or keep it.

Basically, I'm wondering if by washing them with brine so much am I likely to have made a washed rind cheese by accident. Also, I'm wondering if I was wrong to wax the first cheese. And I'm wondering if I should leave the second cheese to develop the white mould, or if I should wash it off and wax it.

As you can tell... I'm absolutely new to all of this. So any help you can give would be much appreciated!can send pictures if you think this will help...

Thanks!
Craig

Stinky

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 11:55:40 PM »
Pictures might be nice. Are you tracking humidity? To me it seems like this may be your problem here. Too high of humidity. If you're using ripening boxes, try cracking the lid a little, if not, put in something that absorbs water vapor from the air. You get a feel for an optimal range over time, but as long as it's not being super infested with mold or cracking you're alright.

A washed rind cheese is a term for a cheese that is washed or brushed daily or semi-daily with a light brine, sometimes containing alcohol, the end result of the process trying to encourage a bacteria called Brevibacterium linens, or b.linens. This is a red coating that grows on the cheese, but is not a mold and as such is not fuzzy. It takes usually several weeks to get a nice washed rind going.

There's also natural rind cheeses where the rinds get washed, but that's usually with a higher saturated brine, and the goal there is more to prevent mold in general.

On the whole, mold doesn't usually affect the flavor much, unless you let it go wild. For an example of a really funky rind, see this. What I like to do with most cheeses is let mold grow, assuming it's not out of control, and brush it back every few days. You end up with a cool-looking rind, and you learn about your local microflora. I tend to cut the rind off, but I do that with pretty much every cheese. Even when waxed, the outer rind is usually not very tasty.

The white dusty mold you're seeing on the second one is probably your local variety of geotrichum candidum. Harmless, helps contribute to cheese, and pretty much universal. Don't worry about it at all.

What saturation of brine did you wash with?

The temperature is pretty important for most types of cheese. Of course, you're still going to get a viable product, but there are probably going to be a fair number of defects resulting from that temperature, particularly IME texture and mouthfeel.

Don't wax if at all possible before 20 days. You have the starter bacteria, which die after 24 hours or so, and then the ripening bacteria start working. These first few weeks are the most important part in the development of the cheese. Once around that time span has elapsed, those bacteria die and release enzymes into the paste, which then start doing their magic. Again, you won't necessarily get rubbish if you wax too early, you just won't get great cheese. The ripening bacteria need air exchange. If you wax, they suffocate. Waxing after a month or so is absolutely fine, just check them regularly to make sure there isn't mold growing under the wax or whey seeping out. If there is, unwax, deal with the problem, and rewax. When waxing, especially on cheeses that have had a fair amount of mold, it's always safer and easier to just heat the wax up to 205º F. This is the temperature that will kill the mold, so you don't have to scrub with salt and vinegar and let dry for a while, exposing it to the microflora of the air again.

What type of milk do you use?

I'd say keep the first one waxed, and let the other one have a natural rind. Pick up a new fingernail brush, or cleaning brush, natural bristles are better, and whenever it gets a little too fuzzy for your liking brush it off over the sink. Then cut them open in six months and see how you like them.

In the meantime, make sure you don't have too high of humidity. Not a problem with waxed cheeses, so much, but can be really annoying and discouraging with natural rinds.

And again. Mold. Gets. Everywhere.

Don't freak out. If you're really intimidated, post a picture here and ask.

Hope that helped a little, and sorry if I overwhelmed you.

craigbayne

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2015, 11:26:51 AM »
Hi,

thanks a lot for the really detailed response! Really appreciate it. 

I've not been tracking humidity (or pH during making the cheese) but I think I'll need to invest in this! I'm actually living on a boat right now, so I'm expecting humidity to be a bit of an issue (might have to buy some desiccants to keep it down). I've just been aging the cheese in a pan (on top of a mat to let the air circulate) with some cheese cloth over the top. I was under the impression that air flow was really important in the first drying stage.

On temperature - how is a high temperature likely to affect the cheese in terms of texture and mouthfeel - maybe it'll be weird and hard? Also, if I'm honest, the saturation of the brine was pretty random - I really just mixed some salt into boiled water, let it cool down, then wiped the surface of the cheese down with a cloth.

The first cheese (the one that got pretty moldy), was made from store-bought pastuerised and homogenised milk, but the second cheese (which didn't really get too moldy despite sitting right beside the first one) was made from raw milk. I think that it probably didn't get so moldy because the natural fungi in the milk were able to fight the mold off - would that make sense? As I understand it, the fungus (probably geo) is feeding off the cheese just now, breaking down the proteins, and this can eventually lead to the cheese going soft in the centre (like Camembert). I've got some super-newbie questions on this:

If I left my cheese to develop tons of geo, washing it every so often and not waxing it, will it make it go soft in the middle eventually?
Will waxing it prevent that happening?
Also, I really pressed this cheese a lot (probably too much - 20kg of pressure for 24 hours!) - so will this have an effect on preventing the cheese from softening in the centre?

Ahhhh... so many questions! Sorry if it's boring to have all of these newbie questions (I'm trying to read a lot on the subject just now)

I'll take your advice on not waxing the cheese for at least 20 days.

Final question - when you say the best thing to do with a cheese that's had a lot of mold and now needs rewaxed is to heat the wax to 205F - I take it you mean that you don't peel the wax off the cheese first, you just dip the waxed cheese into the hot wax, and let the heat pass through and kill the mold?

Thanks again, sorry for all of the questions!

Craig
 



 

Stinky

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 02:02:01 PM »
I've not been tracking humidity (or pH during making the cheese) but I think I'll need to invest in this! I'm actually living on a boat right now, so I'm expecting humidity to be a bit of an issue (might have to buy some desiccants to keep it down). I've just been aging the cheese in a pan (on top of a mat to let the air circulate) with some cheese cloth over the top. I was under the impression that air flow was really important in the first drying stage.
Ehh, it's not too important as long as mold isn't overgrowing your cheese. If it is, decrease the humidity. I'd say temperature would be more worth investing in than a humidity sensor, per se. You can pick up pretty cheap ones, though, if you just want a nice compact little temp/humidity household sensor. Works fine.
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On temperature - how is a high temperature likely to affect the cheese in terms of texture and mouthfeel - maybe it'll be weird and hard? Also, if I'm honest, the saturation of the brine was pretty random - I really just mixed some salt into boiled water, let it cool down, then wiped the surface of the cheese down with a cloth.
It might be a bit more sour, might have solid fat crystals, might just feel strange on your tongue. IME. That's an absolutely fine approach to brine, just not going to get you washed rind very easily.
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The first cheese (the one that got pretty moldy), was made from store-bought pastuerised and homogenised milk, but the second cheese (which didn't really get too moldy despite sitting right beside the first one) was made from raw milk. I think that it probably didn't get so moldy because the natural fungi in the milk were able to fight the mold off - would that make sense? As I understand it, the fungus (probably geo) is feeding off the cheese just now, breaking down the proteins, and this can eventually lead to the cheese going soft in the centre (like Camembert). I've got some super-newbie questions on this:
No. I'd say that's not a super reasonable assumption. Cheese is naturally a hospitable environment for mold, and usually one type of organism or another is encouraged. I'm assuming either, for example, the cloth on top was less moist and had less humidity, or it was less humid in another way. Either that, or geo got ahold of it first and kept some other molds from taking over. Also, don't worry about mold making your cheese soft. Unless you really optimise for this and have one of about three types of organism on your cheese, it won't get soft. Don't worry. Camembert is that way because of penicillum candidum.


More answers later.

Stinky

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 09:02:51 PM »
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If I left my cheese to develop tons of geo, washing it every so often and not waxing it, will it make it go soft in the middle eventually?
Not as far as I know. Possibly at some point, but only if you really try at it. Not a concern with hard cheeses.

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Also, I really pressed this cheese a lot (probably too much - 20kg of pressure for 24 hours!) - so will this have an effect on preventing the cheese from softening in the centre?
Not too much for a cheddar. Maybe a bit longer than necessary.
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Ahhhh... so many questions! Sorry if it's boring to have all of these newbie questions (I'm trying to read a lot on the subject just now)
Recommend Gianaclis Caldwell's book. Ask questions here whenever. Once you get to a higher level of comprehension I can give you more recommendations. Also, reading is great but practice is also good. Experience on how to cheese in the first place, and you have somewhere to apply things you've learned.
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I'll take your advice on not waxing the cheese for at least 20 days.
Great. :D
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Final question - when you say the best thing to do with a cheese that's had a lot of mold and now needs rewaxed is to heat the wax to 205F - I take it you mean that you don't peel the wax off the cheese first, you just dip the waxed cheese into the hot wax, and let the heat pass through and kill the mold?
I mean if you haven't waxed it yet, or whenever you rewax. If you just put that hot of wax on the outside of an already waxed cheese it won't have any effect-the whole point is hot coming in contact with surface. So if you see mold developing under the wax, or if you ever have to strip it off and rewax for any reason, then do it. If you don't see mold, not necessary to do it. It's just a helpful little thing that doesn't really require more effort than heating it up less and saves you time down the road constantly rewaxing everything.
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Thanks again, sorry for all of the questions!
I'm glad I can help. Still learning myself, and continuing to ask questions.

Probably my biggest tip ATM is take pictures and detailed notes of every make, and post them here. If things go wrong, people have more an idea of why that could have happened and can help you, and you know how to do things differently next time.

craigbayne

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 02:07:02 PM »
Hi,

So I've been ageing my cheese for the last week or so, giving it a bit of time before waxing it. It's started developing a yellow mould that I'm not too sure about - does anyone know what this is? I tried rubbing it off with some brine, but the only way of getting it off seems to be to go straight to the bottom of the rind that the cheese has been forming. It's also a little bit pink in places. Should be able to see this in the first photo.

The other thing is its started to crack a bit - might be because it's been drying too quickly because the temp is a bit hot, or because I think the cheese cloth might have been a bit bunched when I pressed it. I've read that oiling it is a good idea - is that the general consensus? You should be able to see this on the second pic. By the way, before taking the second pic is just rubbed a bit of mold off with a brined cloth - that's why it looks a bit damp

Craig
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 03:48:40 PM by craigbayne »

Stinky

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Re: Accidental washed rind?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2015, 12:07:06 AM »
Hi,

So I've been ageing my cheese for the last week or so, giving it a bit of time before waxing it. It's started developing a yellow mould that I'm not too sure about - does anyone know what this is?
Not specifically, it might be a type of bacteria that can be in water sources. I've had it on mine before, don't worry. Can taste a bit bitter but shouldn't make a huge difference to the cheese.
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I tried rubbing it off with some brine, but the only way of getting it off seems to be to go straight to the bottom of the rind that the cheese has been forming. It's also a little bit pink in places. Should be able to see this in the first photo.
Yeah, it stains the cheese. No worries. Pink is b.linens.
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The other thing is its started to crack a bit - might be because it's been drying too quickly because the temp is a bit hot, or because I think the cheese cloth might have been a bit bunched when I pressed it.
Not a temp thing, but a humidity thing. The humidity is too low. Perhaps try moistening the cheesecloth more often. If the cracks get larger, rub some lard or butter in.
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I've read that oiling it is a good idea - is that the general consensus?
It's just another way of doing rinds. You could try it at some point. I'd do it more for Italian cheeses, rather than Cheddars.