LACTIC CURD Washed Rind

[andreark]

Does anyone on this forum know how to SUCCESSFULLY make a Lactic Curd Washed Rind (Brev. Lin.) cheese?
And by successful, I mean a cheese that gets a good red, orange, or ivory color AND gets soft and runny
on the inside? 

I have made some that get a lovely color, but don't ripen properly. 

And I DEFINITELY mean a lactic curd (little or no rennet) cheese.

Thanks,

Andreark

[Stinky]

I'll ask Pav for you.

I'm guessing the make would be different from a bloomy-type lactic. Have you tried inoculating with ripening yeasts?

[andreark]

I have done everything including using ARN, PLA, KL, MVA, etc, etc.

I understood that Arthrobacter (in ARN) would help 'set the stage' for Brevibacterium, Corynebacterium, etc. to
grow on the surface of a lactic cheese.  But so far I have had no great luck.

andreark   
 

[OzzieCheese]

Have you tried Epoisses.  this one has a rennet set for 4 hours but the traditional is a 16 hour lactic set cheese.  I'm experimenting with washes at the moment and trying a Brandy instead of the French stuff I cant get hold of anyway. Or Calvados.. though that's a bit expensive...

4 litres Milk
1/8 tsp meso II
pinch of B.linens
1/4 Cal Chloride
2 drops of rennet

Some sort of Brandy.
Heat to 86F
Add Linens and Meso
Add Cal Chloride
ripen for 30 minutes.

Add rennet and leave for 4 hours or until a clean break is achieved. 

Bring back to 86 F.  Cut curd to 3/4 Inch.  And label into 2 Camembert molds.  Let drain for 24 hours once drained to 1/2 the height,  flip every two hours, not sure how I'd do that   well while awake anyway    This is where the make notes are a bit weird - it doesn't say for how long.

Remove from mold and rub salt on the surface and let dry/drain.

Brine wash 1 tsp salt to 1/2 cup of water

Keeping the cheeses in a space at 50 F and 90% RH..

Wash and flip the cheese every second day with the brine.  After the first week alternate with a mix of 1/2 brandy and 1/2 water. Do this every second day for 6 weeks or until the desired softness is achieved.

Hope that helps

-- Mal
 


 






 

[Stinky]

I think that's a rennet make, or a high-rennet semi-lactic.

I asked Pav, since I was curious as well.

He pointed out that it's a bit of a moisture issue as well. Beaufort and Brick are similar makes, but Brick is much moister.

make it more like a raclette, for example
in the pH style
eg rennet at 6.2
and then wait until 5.8 to cut
so you shift the whole thing
with enough moisture, it will turn out,  but you lose the lactic character
and use a very proteolytic morge with strong linens

Add your normal amount of culture, 1/2 to 1/4 the rennet you would use in hard cheese.

So we have something that looks like:

Take 80 degree milk or so. Culture as much as you normally would.
Rennet at 6.2
Cut at 5.8
Ladle evenly into mold(s)
Drain 12 hours, unmold, let dry, and stick in 55º cave.
Wash daily for 2-3 weeks, if 2 then maybe twice a week.
Wrap it up and shove it in the fridge until soft.

[andreark]

I have read in various  ‘learned’ type articles, that Arthrobacter or KL or MVA must be used to prepare the surface of the lactic or semi-lactic cheese to allow a Corynebacterium or Brevibacterim to work their magic.

I have used combinations of the above to no avail.

HAS ANYONE OUT THERE, SUCCESSFULLY, MADE AN EPOISSE TYPE CHEESE?  AND BY THAT I MEAN ONLY A LACTIC OR SEMI-LACTIC TYPE USING 1 OR LESS DROPS OF RENNET PER GALLON AND TAKING 20-24 HOURS TO ‘SET’ AND DROP TO 4.59(ISH) PH.

Andreark

[Stinky]

Well, you do need some yeast or another to prepare the surface.

If you were specifically going for that little rennet of a semi-lactic I can ask again. I'm sorry if the information I provided wasn't actually what you were looking for, but I'd consider giving it a try before giving up on semi-lactics at all.

[awakephd]

Andreark, what specifically tends to happen, or not, with the cheeses you have tried before? How long have you ripened them?

I'm wondering what sort of difference the lactic-acid set vs. a rennet set makes when it comes to the ripening -- given the exact same BL covering on the outside, would one ripen differently from the other? Is one less amenable to the initial yeast covering than the other?

[andreark]

I HAVE USED (NOT ALL AT ONCE) KL71, R2R, CUM, AND DH.

THESE ARE ALL DE-ACIDIFYING AND RIPENING YEASTS.

ANDREARK

[Stinky]

Pav says you aren't really going to get very soft with a pure lactic make.

[andreark]

I have found that to be true here in the US with all my attempts.  But the French (e.g. Gaugry) make the real stuff and it get's soft.  And it IS lactic.  Gaugry lets their cheese coagulate for 20 to 24 hours.....And that is definitely a lactic.

Could you ask Pav just exactly 'why' it doesn't get soft here?  I would appreciate it.  If it's something I'm doing wrong, I will try to fix it.
But if it just can't be done here, I would like to know why.

Thanks again for your interest, (and your help I hope)

frustrated Andreark

[Stinky]

um
ok
maybe we are using different meanings
epoisses is not pure'ly lactic
it is mmm
"mostly"
essentially the character is lactic
but it uses a bit of rennet to help
it can be done, but it's a tough cheese to do well.
to get gooey you have to make a cheese that will still shear when you cut the lactic curd
meaning the ph gets rather low
4.5 or so
and is still moist enough to support it
and has decent fat, but more protein so the protein runs

Take from that what you will, I'm not completely sure what all it means. Still learning.

[andreark]

It could be lactic or (as Peter Dixon calls it) semi-lactic, meaning that only one drop rennet or so is used.  In
either case, it takes 20 to 24 hours to get to the desired PH of 4.59 and be ready to cut.  It MUST
then (as Gaugry says) be drained in controlled temp and humidity for 2 to 3 days in order to be dry
enough to keep it from getting slip-skin. 

I can get it to this point, and it doesn't disintegrate (slip-skin), but from there it stays 90% solid (just
a little softening around the surface) BUT it colors only slightly and never really softens.  It DOES
smell 'Epoisse like', but that's it.  It never progresses from there. Ughhhh!!!! 

I hate this cheese!!!!  But I will keep trying different combinations of starters and bacteria.

I can make a lovely taleggio which gets lovely and soft, WHY CAN I NOT BE HAPPY WITH THAT??

Dear Forum members, please forgive my ranting.

andreark

[Gregore]

Not that I know a whole lot compared to some on this forum .....

But is it at all possible that the cheese is dropping below 4.59? Maybe quite a bit lower on the inside?


Do you make enough so that one could be sacrificed for testing ?

Possibly cut a chunk off at a time and record the ph until the center  is what you need

I look forward to hearing how this gets solved.

[Stinky]

"then the flora are off
what is the inoculant?"