Author Topic: Experimenting with Valençay  (Read 6492 times)

sashap

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Experimenting with Valençay
« on: September 21, 2015, 12:10:35 PM »
Two days ago I started an approximation of Valençay cheese. It is surely not Valençay, because the goat's milk is very rare here and very expensive, so I used raw cow's milk to simulate the process first. I like very much the idea of traditional lactic coagulation (with the addition of 4 drops of rennet) and the ash on the cheese, although I have only seen this cheese on the photos and have no idea of its taste... This is an experiment and the only purpose is to understand the basics of lactic set cheese and the ashing process. I'm still learning and need some assistance from the experts (please don't be humble, many of you have the knowledge that allows you to call yourself that).

Today is the third day of make and I want to clarify some points of the process.

Here's my make notes:

Day 1.

At 13:40 added cultures to 3l of raw fresh cow's milk (MM101, P.C. from a piece of frozen Camembert rind, 4 drops of rennet). The ambient temperature was perfect, so the milk was 22 degrees Celsius.

Day 2.

At 12:30 the curd was formed. It was softer than the rennet coagulated curd, but still workable. Decided to pre-drain. I put it in a big ricotta basket, lined with two layers of cheesecloth, to allow it to drain very slowly.

Question 1. On every picture of lactic coagulated cheese, the whey surface was very clear, mine was full of cream (I skimmed it to use later, it has a very nice taste and it was a shame to drain it in the sink). Am I doing something wrong or it is supposed to rise on top?  Is there a possibility to incorporate the fat into the curds?

After 3h of pre-draining, I ladled the curds into two molds (one pyramid and one small mold for pressed cheeses).

Day 3 (today).

The cheeses drain nicely. They lost some height, but only a little. The drained whey is clear. Before I left home for work the paste was still moist and soft. I was planning to salt and ash them today, but wanted to be sure that it's the right thing to do. The timings in the recipes are very liberal (24-48 hours) and it's very hard to tell when it's the right time to do the next step.

Question 2. After salting and "ashing", should I put the cheese in the fridge (at 10-12 degrees Celsius) or keep them at room temp? Room temperature is between 20 and 23 degrees C (19 in the night), the recipe calls for 15 degrees, but it's impossible for me to reach it.

Question 3. I suppose MM101 is not the perfect culture for this cheese (I don't have any other culture) and I was wandering, is it possible to ripen the milk without any bought culture? Here where I live, it seems that there's a lot of "wild" culture in the air, my grandma used to make Kefir and cottage cheese only by letting the milk at room temperature and it coagulated without help or any additions. Last week I bought some raw milk and had some problems with the car on the way home. I got home some hours later than planned and the milk was sour. It gave me the hint and I thought: what if I don't add any culture at all and only help the coagulation with a few drops of rennet? It would be a nice experiment.

Photos will follow, didn't take any yesterday so I have nothing to share, but this evening I will add some pics of the unmolding.

Sorry for the long post.
Here's a picture from my trip to France that will soften your hearts (I called it "Heaven on Earth"):
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 12:18:14 PM by Alex P. »

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 04:16:28 PM »
Ok, I'm home now. Unmolded one of the cheeses and it feels very soft, I think I'll leave them until tomorrow morning, maybe even until evening. The great news is that on the uncovered surface, the P.C. has a good time! The surface is covered in white fluff! It's the first time I'm seeing it growing so fast.

A photo attached. It seems steady, but it's very soft on touch though.
-Alex
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 04:22:22 PM by Alex P. »

jmason

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 05:13:37 PM »
looks pretty good to me.  Not really sure what to tell you about the milky whey, trying to remember if that happened to me when making french style nuefchatel (which by the way is wonderful) but I don't remember if it was milky or clear, I want to say clear but memory fades with age.

q1- Whey rising to the top, the curds shrinking away from the sides are both signs that the curd has set.
q2- It has been in the room temp environment and you are showing pc growth so yes I would put into fridge.  My Nuefchatel aged just fine in the fridge, I think.
q3- even adding the 101, you probably still have a considerable influence of the milk flora, maybe it isn't the perfect culture although I am no expert on the style, but I think it should be fine.  If the dairy is reasonably clean wild may be just fine as the sole culture, you may need a longer incubation time.  And I can repeat the advice of aging for 60+ days for raw milk cheese blah blah blah......  I think the problem is overstated personally.  If I was comfortable with the farm I wouldn't hesitate to eat a young cheese made from their raw milk, but that's me.

I'll give a cheese if you promise to post progress photos

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 05:29:07 PM »
I'll give a cheese if you promise to post progress photos

I have no one to show my cheeses, so you'll get updates even if you don't want to  :D

I understand that using raw milk is a risk, but I'm ready to take it.

Not really sure what to tell you about the milky whey
It wasn't milky, under the layer of cream it was clear. The today drained whey is very clear and the smell is pleasant.

Thanks for the feedback and answers.

-Alex.

jmason

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 06:00:56 PM »
I was just looking over some of your past posts and saw the print on your rennet was in Russian.  Are you in Chisnau?  I thought Moldova was largely ethnically Romanian.  Is Russian still widely spoken there?  I have wanted to visit Moldova, just haven't gotten around to it

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 06:38:31 PM »
Yes! I live in Chisinau. The rennet was Bulgarian, ordered on ebay, but you were pretty close (if you look closely, you can see alternative Cyrillic characters on the keyboard on the last attached photo).

Is Russian still widely spoken there?
There are many russians here, I speak Russian fluently (only because it's mandatory in schools from soviet times until now and you often hear Russian around). The main language is Romanian here, everyone was speaking Russian because, you know, politic reasons. Now things change and everyone starts to learn the language of the country they live in and we get along.

Frankly, I don't know if I would visit Moldova if I were you, but hey, everyone has a specific taste. We don't have many "touristy" things here, but if you enjoy countryside and traditions, you'll have a good time.

-Alex

P.S. Bring some cheese if you come!

jmason

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 11:51:29 PM »
Well now I'm embarrassed.  I looked quickly and saw Cyrillic, didn't really even read it, forgot that there are other languages that use Cyrillic.  And I guess that I should have.  When I lived in St Petersburg I used to buy a Bulgarian feta like cheese, and during my travels in Ukraine while I noted the small differences in language they were so small that I had no trouble communicating well enough to get around with my somewhat limited Russian skills. 

I do travel much differently than many people.  I mostly enjoy seeing the people and the culture and of course the food.  Moldova from what I understand was one of the hardest hit when the Soviet Union collapsed.  Many years ago I corresponded with a couple from Chisinau, unfortunately I have lost touch with them.  I also used to drink some Moldovan wines, Chorney Doktor among them. 

It's been many years since I have traveled in the FSR, and I do get to missing it, Many Americans hate it, but for some reason I have always felt comfortable there. 

Now I can only relate taste wise to the valancay via the Nuefchatel that I made a few times.  But if you like the camembert then I think you will like this, the combination of lactic coagulated and PC ripened is pretty neat taste wise, I might even like the flavor better but I have loved cams so long that it's hard to admit that.  I have never tasted the real Nuefchatel so I am going by what my own creation tastes like.  I do tend to like them fairly well ripened and they seem to take longer to ripen, maybe the acid is higher and it takes longer for the pc to overcome that in the paste of the cheese. 

You're progressing quite well as a cheesemaker, Molodets! Felicitări!

John

SOSEATTLE

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 01:13:41 AM »
Hi Alex-

I have made several valencay style cheeses, but do have access to wonderful raw goat's milk  ^-^. As far as the whey being milky, I have found that is fairly normal with doing lactic/semilactic cheeses. May be more so with cow's milk because it is not partially homoginized like goat's milk. I wouldn't worry about it. Have you salted and ashed yet? I do that as soon as I unmold. I find it easiest to mix the ash with the salt. Regardless, the ash will tend to get everywhere and is quite messy  ::).  As soon as I ash/salt, I put in my cave at the temp. that I'm going to age at and seems to work fine. I wish you luck. I really enjoy making these type of cheeses  :D.


Susan

Offline Gregore

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 05:06:46 AM »


as far as natural cultures go if you can get ahold of some kefir I think you should start making it at home so you have it to add to your cheese when you make it as it adds multiple types of wild geo , it also has the potential to lessen the chances of strange things getting into your cheese and taking over .

Also people's from your part of the world have consumed this drink for thousands of years , thus it is possible that  you might actually need  it  in your diet and should help with your health and well being

Add about 1/8 cup to each gallon plus your mm 101

As far as the danger of getting sick from raw milk , I would think that from some of the accident  videos I have seen from that part of the world , I would think it is way more dangerous to drive to get the milk than drink it.

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 06:20:31 AM »
I would think it is way more dangerous to drive to get the milk than drink it.
I agree completely! Though I don't try force my opinion on others. Using raw milk is my own choice and risk, so wouldn't advise it or forbid it to someone. I remember my grandparents using it during my entire childhood, so I choose to do the same.

but do have access to wonderful raw goat's milk  ^-^.
Oh, I so envy you!

Have you salted and ashed yet?
Yes, they are salted and ashed. But today's temperature is low, so I decided to leave them at room temp, to dry a little. This evening I'm going to move them to the cave. They don't look great now, but it's my first time, so go easy on me :D I think they need to be a little drier before ashing, but still, the salt would expel some whey and it will get wet and messy again.

Molodets! Felicitări!
John
Wow, neat  :D Yes, we were hit harder than anyone else, our population decimated by the Soviets with their deportations to Siberia, by the war(s). After the big collapse we were left alone and didn't know what to do with the given democracy (we were under dictators every time so liberty was something new, and still is for some people...).
I know many people like you, that like to travel to the ex-Soviet countries and explore the remaining (99% of them live in first-world countries), but we like to see "the better world" around us and tend to travel to places much more developer than us. In this way you get to see how people live and what to tend to. The positive thing is that we all know at least 3 languages and have a good time travelling (I speak 5, had to learn them but have no regret).

You're progressing quite well as a cheesemaker
Thanks John, I was influenced by our trip to France in May, so many cheeses and so perfect! We tried many artisan cheeses and heard great histories of them, in every artisan cheese shop you were greeted by new stories and new flavors. I regret that I didn't know at least 10% of the names and stories before and many cheeses still are a mystery for me. I had the pleasure to eat "the real" Neufchatel and I would now buy plane tickets only to eat it again! I'm afraid to go again to France, I'll spend all our money there :D

-Alex
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 06:42:42 AM by Alex P. »

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 03:12:42 AM »
Hi Alex,  you speak 5 !! that's amazing - I still struggle with one !!.  I wonder if it's too late to learn another ?? I do like you recent forays into Cheese.  Congrats on them turning out so well. A cheese is deserved I feel :)

-- Mal
   
Usually if one person asks a question then 10 are waiting for the answer - Please ask !

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 04:46:45 AM »
I wonder if it's too late to learn another ??
It's never too late. And I'm not going to stop here. My goal is the 6th and this time a difficult one (like Japanese). I started last year but didn't have enough time to continue, so I gave up for now.

My little cheeses are starting to sprout! I can see a thin layer of white fluff on the round one!

jmason

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 09:09:16 AM »
What do you call someone that speaks 2 languages-bilingual
What do you call someone that speaks 3 languages-trilingual
What do you call someone that speaks 1 language-American

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 03:44:18 AM »
In this day and age I feel slightly embarrassed in only speaking one.  I started French and Italian but never continued.  Maybe I should invest some brain cells into learning another.. beyond tre bon and caio.

-- Mal
Usually if one person asks a question then 10 are waiting for the answer - Please ask !

sashap

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Re: Experimenting with Valençay
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 05:02:14 AM »
I could give you some lessons. I learned French 10 years in school and Italian at work (I work for an Italian company), as currency we can use your cheese :D

Here's a photo of the cheeses. The white fur grows and I think we're on the right track. The smaller cheese still feels like it's too soft, but it's ok, I'll cut it first :D

-Alex
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 05:18:17 AM by Alex P. »