Author Topic: Wine Infused Cheese.  (Read 2477 times)

Offline bansidhe

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Wine Infused Cheese.
« on: July 18, 2021, 11:41:40 AM »
Yesterday I made the wine infused cheese from NE cheesemaking. Recipe:https://cheesemaking.com/products/wine-infused-cheese-recipe

I used pasteurized whole milk. I feel my curds got too small so on the sides of the cheese you dont see the nice mottled appearance I wanted.
After I cut the curds, it seemed the got really small\. Too small.  As a result, I didn't not stir as long .  I figured, being so small they'd dry out way faster.  I think they did.
Another issue is, I feel they cooled down during the drain phase too much. I tried to keep the temperature up but I don't think I was successful.  Nonetheless, the curds did knit together.  Below are some pics.  The next time, I will use my usual raw pasteurized combination as I have had great success with that.  I will also cut a bit bigger.  If anyone can give any suggestions on how to keep one's curds larger while stirring and heating, that would be most appreciated!  I really try to be gentle but I find it hard to have nice sized curds that are also firm throughout.

(The larger looking curds in the photo are really just cases of curds that matted that I didnt break up.)
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Offline molly

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM »
Nice, ACFU. I use a whisk and stir continual and slow and gently.

Offline bansidhe

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2021, 05:52:25 PM »
Thank You!  Yeah, I like the whisk method.  I tried to do horizontal cuts using my cheese "ladle" this time.  I can never get it quite right...
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Offline molly

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2021, 06:58:05 PM »
Yes the horizontal cut is a bit of a challenge isn't it. I got a stainless steel welding rod that I am going to bend and see how that works for the horizontal cut.

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2021, 09:09:44 PM »
To get a consistent horizontal you need a piece of kit called a curd harp. There are several designs on the internet.
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Offline Bantams

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2021, 03:10:02 PM »
Small scale commercial cheesemakers often use a large whisk. You can bend the wires or remove a couple to make them spaced more evenly. Those nice curd knives for big vats cost about $900 for a pair so you'd be surprised how many just use a whisk. :)

Offline Boofer

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2021, 01:17:04 AM »
Just thought I'd add my too sense....

My experience.

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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2021, 02:07:29 AM »
It would appear my own experience mirrors yours.  With this cheese I used pasteurized milk in hopes of finding a PH milk that'll work well.  I was hopeful since this milk is flash pasteurized (Brand = Natural by Nature).  Normally I use a combination of raw and this brand of pasteurized and my curds are SOOO much better. 
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Offline mikekchar

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2021, 02:21:10 AM »
Yeah, that homogenised milk.  I've been experimenting with ways of working with it better.  My current technique (given that you are looking for a normal multiplier of about 3.0):

  • Cut columns when you get to multiplier of about 2.0
  • Cut "horizontal" at a multiplier of about 2.5 (for me that means "diagonal" since I have no curd harp :-)
  • Wait without stirring until a multiplier of 3.0
  • Stir with a slotted spoon with just bringing the curds from the bottom of the pot to the top and cut any large curds.  Just do this once (i.e., bring all of the curds from the bottom to the top)
  • Wait 5 minutes and repeat 3 times (for a total of 15 minutes and 3 stirs)
  • From that point stir slowly with your hand, trying not to destroy the curds.  At first only once a minute, but eventually you should be able to do it slowly and continuously

The main downside is that you'll basically be about 15 minutes behind the acidity curve in terms of curd texture (from my experience).  So cut back on the milk ripening time by about the same amount. This will slow down the curd set, so you might want to up the temperature by a degree or two.  It's kind of a touchy-feely thing depending on your milk.  I've used some homogenised milk that wasn't nearly as bad and I'm not entirely sure what the difference was.

Anyway, I just polished off a tomme that I made using that technique and it was my best cheese yet (with any milk).  So it's worth experimenting.  You *can* make good cheese from homogenised milk.  It's just more difficult.

Offline bansidhe

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2021, 10:59:02 AM »
That's cool!  I've been doing something similar but not as detailed as your technique. I think I will try your method the next time I use all pasteurized.
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2021, 03:35:26 PM »
Mike, that's a good system.... I use something similar for my mix of P/H milk and 18% coffee cream (which is probably also homogenized).... After my Floc. target I cut columns, heal 5 minutes, cut horizontally, heal 5 minutes, then stir gently every few minutes for (typically) 15 minutes.... You are cutting sooner than me, relative to your Floc. target, but if the Floc. time is 10 minutes, our intervals would be the same.... However, I would not be finished cutting until a multiple of 1.0 greater than my initial target.... Even then, the curds are still quite fragile.... You take your multiple from the addition of the rennet, right?.... ie for a Floc. time of 10 minutes, a multiple of 3.0 would be 30 minutes from the addition of the rennet, not from when the curd first "set"?....

One other thing I do, is after the vertical cut, every minute I "shake" the pot gently, parallel to the cuts, to make the columns of curds wave around like a kelp bed in the ocean.... It keeps them separate and encourages the whey to be expelled between them.... Shake isn't really the best word, but I don't have a better word.... I slide the pot sideways on the counter a couple of inches, letting the momentum of the curd cause the columns to "wave".... then do the same parallel to the other vertical cuts.... Once you try it, you will quickly get a feel for it.... I do the same thing after making the horizontal cuts, during their 5 minute healing as well.... also twisting the pot to shear the curds from the side of the pot.... This is a LOT more gentle than any stirring could ever be....

Your comments about changing the ripening time and temperature make sense, but I have never used a pH meter, and having no targets I would not know what changes to make.... Perhaps as I gain more experience I will understand....  :-[

Bob
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Offline mikekchar

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2021, 02:27:30 AM »
Interesting.  Yes, my total time is the flocc time multiplied by the multiplier.  So for a flocc time of 10 minutes and multiple of 3.0, the total set time (from adding the rennet) is 30 minutes.  The idea for cutting early is that the earlier you cut, the faster it will drain.  Normally you will also loose fat because the globules are trapped between the casein micelles.  But for homogenised milk, there *are* no globules. The fat is actually wrapped around the micelles, which is why the rennet works so poorly (IIUC).  So there is not really much danger of that.  And in fact, you can see that homogenised milk has *very* clear whey most of the time as a result.  The "shaking" seems like a good idea.  I think I know what you mean.  I'll have to give that a try.

In terms of hitting pH targets, I don't have a pH meter either and hitting drain targets is a lot of guess work.  However, I do a couple of things to inform myself.  The way the curds stick together is completely different depending on pH.  The higher the pH, the easier they stick together.  You may have seen Gavin Webber suggest squeezing a handful of curds and then pushing them apart with your thumb.  This is the test to get you to about a pH of 6.0 (I *think*), so it's a bad test to use if you want to have a higher pH than that :-)  Higher pH the curds will stick together more easily.  Lower and they will fall apart.

Similarly, curds will form from acid at 85 C at a pH of 6.0 - 6.1.  Take some where (possibly all of it) and make ricotta out of it.  If no curds form, then you are above 6.1.  If curds form, but they sink into the whey, then you are below 6.0.  If I'm making cheeses that are really high PH (like a tomme or alpine cheese), then I usually wait an hour or so and then make ricotta.  This just helps me dial in my process.  It's all estimation, but over time you get a feel for it.

Offline rsterne

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2021, 03:30:40 AM »
I use a "grip test" all the time.... After cooking the curds I take some and compress them in my hand to squeeze out the whey, then see how easy it is to tease them apart with my thumb.... The longer you cook, the easier they come apart, and I had guessed that was a measure of pH.... Jim Wallace uses this all the time in his recipes as well.... A while ago I did a Colby, and I waited until they nearly fell apart when I barely touched them with my thumb.... The cheese ended up too dry.... There is a definite relationship between the grip test and the ultimate dryness of the cheese.... I just haven't figured out the intricacies of it yet.... ie when to stop to get a specific result....

My "Drunken Dutchman" (wine infused cheese) was nearly impossible to press, and the curds ended up very small, with a low yield, and the cheese drier than I want.... I think the step of agitating the drained curds, while keeping them warm for 60 minutes to "ripen", before the wine soak, dropped the pH too far, making them smaller and hard to knit....

If I understand you correctly, for an alpine cheese like an Emmental or Gruyere, you want a higher pH when you press them?.... How do you determine when to stop cooking and drain?.... (other than making Ricotta, which I have never done)....

Bob
« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 04:02:16 AM by rsterne »
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Offline mikekchar

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2021, 05:53:44 AM »
If I understand you correctly, for an alpine cheese like an Emmental or Gruyere, you want a higher pH when you press them?.... How do you determine when to stop cooking and drain?.... (other than making Ricotta, which I have never done)....

Have a look at (the person whose name I always forget)'s Beaufort video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMjvvMY719s

I think you will find it very, very interesting :-)

Offline bansidhe

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Re: Wine Infused Cheese.
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2021, 05:30:51 PM »
I opened up my Wine infused cheese.  It looks pretty nice.  Sadly.. it does not taste as  it looks.

The wine taste is very pronounced, but it seems to need more salt..  the worse part is the texture.  I used pasteurized milk and
I noticed my curds were VERY tiny.. like coarse sand.  I continued on anyway..   as I was draining the curds there was consolidation which I tried to break up but not too much because I wanted some larger "curds".  Also it pressed and kitted fine.

But when I cut into it.. where the tiny curds were, it crumbled apart.  :-(.

I did notice that towards the outside the cheese felt a bit moister or more pliable,.. not as crumbly. SO I wonder if I re wax it and put it back for another month or two will it improve.  (I opened after 7 weeks)

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