Detecting floc point help

[mikey687]

I made some Camemberts on Friday and thought I'd have a real go at detecting the flocculation point and calculating the time to clean break but I hit a problem.

I use raw Jersey milk that is unhomogenised. I've found that I get the best results if I get the cream well mixed in, add the culture, let it sit, mix really well for 2 minutes, add the rennet and then mix slowly but constantly for 4 minutes before stopping and letting it be. I usually end up with a nice clean break with no floating cream on top, even if I add extra cream into the mix to make a triple cream.

So I followed the same process on Friday, but this time, because I was looking out for it, I noticed that I seemed to get an instant flocculation on the surface when I added the rennet. The picture below I took about 30 seconds after the addition.

Is this normal? It made it very hard to look out for the flocculation point as I don't know if this is what it's supposed to look like or is it finer particles in the milk?
At about 15 minutes I noticed the milk go slightly cloudy but don't know if this is what flocculation is supposed to look like?

[Stinky]

Not sure what happened here - were you tracking pH?

Flocculation point is where a bowl or tupperware placed on top of the milk doesn't spin, usually.

[Gregore]

I also have never seen that happen

I use a spice jar lid and when it stops turning or moving when tapped , and also when lifted it leaves an impression then it has reached flock

I also think 1 minute of stirring up and down is enough , unless you have a large amount of milk to stir

[OzzieCheese]

Here is a link to my description of making a Cearphilly and helping determine the Flocculation point.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10375.0.html

Float a small sterilised bowl in the milk.  What we are watching for is a change in behaviour in the movement of the bowl from the time you first add the rennet.  You will need a stopwatch for this activity. Add the rennet.  Now, some say to start timing from the instant you add the rennet but, I start timing after I have finished stirring the rennet.  Stir the rennet for the appropriate time – usually 1 minute.  Note the time, this is important in the final calculation and start the stop watch
Give the bowl a little tap sideways and note how it moves freely.
Now, as the curd mass develops this movement amount will change.  Check the movement in 5 minutes, there should not be much change, maybe a little. Check in 2 minutes and if no change check in two minutes.  What we are waiting for is the movement of the bowl to be arrested by the matrix forming underneath.  This will indicate that the enzymes in the rennet are linking all the molecules of milk together. 
Check in two minutes. If no change continue waiting but, start noting the time now in 30 second intervals until when you tap the bowl just wobbles and doesn’t move across the surface of the milk as when you first started.   What we are trying for is this movement to stop in around 9 to 14 minutes.  What we are working towards is determining when to cut the curd as there is a direct relationship between the cutting time, the curd cutting size and the moisture of the finished cheese.

[mikey687]

Hi Guys, thanks for the advice on the flocculation point - this is something I want to master. Really like the idea of tapping the bowl sideways as I was wondering how good a job I would do at spinning. 

I've found in the past that if I stir for only 2 minutes I always seem to get a layer of cream on top of the curds and also free buttermilk when I cut. If I stir for 4 minutes it always looks very smooth with a nice clean break.

I've been having a think about the bits I see straight away and I've got a hypothesis on this:

I'm using Kefir as a starter. I strain it before using it, but it is always super fresh and very active. I wonder if it's so active that as well as inoculating the milk, it also provides a set of nucleation points for the rennet to do a very fast coagulation. Pure guess on my part.

I'm currently in two minds about continuing to use Kefir as a starter. I'm finding that it brings along a lot to the party. It certainly works, I really like the concept of using it, and in the hands of a master it's probably fine but it introduces a lot of variables and the cheeses I've so far made have a fair bit of "character". Good thing I like strong cheese!

I've found that it took over 40 hours for the latest batch of camemberts to get close to target pH and I know I did a good job of temperature and moisture control in the make. I'm planning on getting some standard DVI cultures to see how they behave with the raw Jersey Milk for my next batch, but keep everything else the same so I can do a single variable change.

[Gregore]

I too use kefir in my cheese but I use it as an additive not the main acidifier as I found the same thing as you  did it takes too long to work unless you add a lot of kefir .

[mikey687]

Thanks Gregore, I'm off to buy some cultures...

I'm curious what the Kefir does for you? Is it taste related?

[Gregore]

I actually have not noticed a huge difference but I also use raw milk . I think the main reason I use it is that it has so many extra cultures I suspect that it  probably make my cheese more healthy. And the most important reason is that my wife thinks it is healthier so she tends to  not bother me as much about my cheese eating .

For those that can not or do not use raw milk it is bound to add some flavors . And I suspect it may help combat early blowing and late blowing , though I should add that is just my pet theory .

[mikey687]

That's interesting, as one of the reasons I'm struggling with Kefir is that I've had three separate blowing cheeses out of 6 makes.

In most of the cases I know it's my fault from some underlying thing I did wrong (not getting enough pressure on the cheddar etc.) But in some cases, it seemed a little random. I had a Gruyere that was doing an impression of a soccer ball after 24 hours in the brine (admittedly at room temperature), and one of the cams started blowing (but also after 40 hours at room temperature).

I wondered if the fairly high quantity of Kefir was bringing in some other cultures that would cause the blow ups at long periods of room temperatures.

[Gregore]

 Thankfully I have never suffered from it .  But I suspect that you are getting something from the kitchen into the milk.

My wife makes all kinds of cultures in the kitchen so that is the one place in the house I will never make cheese .

Kitchens have so much potential for contaminating a cheese .

I got myself  a cheap induction cooker and I make the cheese in a spare room , that way no one comes in or out except me . 

[mikey687]

Thinking back on it, you're absolutely right.

I've got a similar approach with my own electric Bain Marie that only gets used for cheese making and nothing touches the milk or curds unless it's disposable or sanitised. Always use disposable towels or air drying, and I seem to get through a ton of cheap disposable gloves.

Except I've just remembered I broke my own rules with that camembert. 

I had prepped all my moulds but I got way more curd yield than I was expecting. The cheese that blew (a small bump after 40 hours) was the last of the curd that I literally hand ladled into some clean but unsanitised moulds in a rush - not the best of situations.

All the rest of the cheeses from that batch are absolutely fine so it can't be the Kefir.

Ironically, I've salted it and not had a problem with it since. Bump went down straight away and hasn't come back.