Author Topic: Washed curd cheese and pressing  (Read 2383 times)

Offline steffb503

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Washed curd cheese and pressing
« on: February 12, 2016, 03:34:32 PM »
I am sure this has been discussed but I can not find the answer.
I remember reading on here some where, that a washed curd cheese should only be pressed, at a final pressing, for 8 hours.
Can some one confirm or contradict this?

Offline awakephd

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2016, 05:16:32 PM »
I would suggest that the key is not a maximum length of time, but rather a minimum pH -- one presses a washed-curd cheese only until the pH drops to the desired level, usually in the 5.3 range. At least, that's my current understanding ... :)
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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2016, 10:45:57 PM »
Yes. You press as long as it takes to

1)press the curds together, expel moisture, bond them
2)attain the proper ph

generally step two takes longer under ideal conditions

the length of time in a recipe is a rough guess at more or less the right pH

to be ideally accurate, measure at key steps during process with pH meter, and adhere as closely as possible to the recipe.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2016, 12:10:56 AM »
I normally press with a little initial warmth to ensure the curds fuse properly. I monitor for a 5.3-5.4 pH. Sometimes it takes several hours to reach that bracket...sometimes it's finished within an hour.

The idea of blindly pressing "overnight" is unconscionable, though some recipes call for that. The progress of the acidity needs to be tracked. Failing to do that often yields a crumbly, sour chunk.

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2016, 12:36:30 AM »
I normally press with a little initial warmth to ensure the curds fuse properly. I monitor for a 5.3-5.4 pH. Sometimes it takes several hours to reach that bracket...sometimes it's finished within an hour.

The idea of blindly pressing "overnight" is unconscionable, though some recipes call for that. The progress of the acidity needs to be tracked. Failing to do that often yields a crumbly, sour chunk.

-Boofer-

Unless you've been doing this under controlled conditions for centuries.

wattlebloke

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 02:49:48 AM »
Hmm, cheesemaking for a novice seems to be getting more and more like doing Potions at Hogwarts! Can someone please explain the relationship between pressing times/pressures and acid development? Presumably the suggestion from Boofer is that you stop pressing when a target pH is reached (which is hopefully when the curd has knitted and the whey expelled) Or is this only for washed curd cheeses?

Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 06:44:07 AM »
I could get into trouble here but. here goes.
There are two things happening inside the cheese that is are sort of related but not that ones causes the other.  More the fact it happens at the same time.  One is Temperature and time based and this is the pH drop due to action of the wonderful culture we have added or are naturally occurring in the case of raw milk. As the pH drops the Calcium Phosphate is leached out of the Casine Network. This is what causes the crumbly Chalky lump to what Boofer is referring to.  And extended pressing just makes the internal dry. Hence dry and chalky is the outcome. Washed Curd cheeses are normal Brined and it is the uptake of salt by the cheese from the brine is what helps arrest the pH drop.  The balance is getting to the 5.3 pH before the cheese cools and the tendency to over press. Getting the cheese into the brine at a good time frame and pH will help ensure that you don't loose the Calcium Phosphate and hence structure.  Pressing under warm whey is a great way to get to the desired pH whilst achieving a good knit and then getting the cheese into the Brine to help halt the ph dropping further.

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Offline awakephd

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 04:13:48 PM »
To broaden Mal's excellent answer, the issue of proper pH is not limited to washed-curd cheeses.

I tend to think in terms of three very broad categories of cheese; I stress this is just my own thinking, and I offer apologies for the massive injustice I am about to do to the incredible diversity of cheeses -- obviously there are all sorts of exceptions to what I am about to propose:

1) Cheeses which need to reach very high / maximum acidity (e.g., pH needs to drop to around 4.5) -- examples include the various bloomy (brie, camembert, etc.) cheeses; some (or all??) blues also fall into this category (I think??), as do the stinky cheeses (again, I think -- I haven't made any stinkies). These cheeses allow the lactic bacteria to go to the limit of what they will do as far as acid production before salt is added; at that point, the salt doesn't restrain the bacteria, but it adds flavor and it plays a part in setting up the cheese for the next stage of ripening. As Mal has described, in the process they loose the calcium phosphate that is necessary for flexible structure; if nothing else acted on them, they would be chalky/crumbly. But the molds/bacterias that then act on these cheeses begin to reverse the pH, bringing it back up, and in the process crossing the point at which the proteins hold onto water. As a result, when they are ripe, they become gooey, even runny.

2) Cheeses which are salted BEFORE pressing -- examples include the various types of cheddar -- these cheeses generally need to reach a certain target pH, usually in the vicinity of 5.2-5.3, before they go into the press. Once the target pH is reached, the cheese is milled (broken/cut into smaller pieces) and salt is added, thus restraining further pH drop. Then the cheese is pressed; since the salt is already added, it doesn't really matter how long it is pressed, so long as excess whey is expelled and a good knit is achieved.

3) Cheeses which are salted AFTER pressing -- examples include the various washed curd cheeses, but also include various thermophilic alpine and Italian cheeses. Once the curds have reached a certain texture/dryness (and maybe also a target pH, but I generally have not been very attentive to that at this stage), the curds are put into the press (possibly initially under whey). They are pressed until the final target pH is reached, usually in the 5.3-5.4 range. Here's the trick: the pressing needs to produce the desired result as far as expelling excess whey and achieving a good knit by the time the target pH is reached. Then the cheese is removed from the press and either brined or dry-salted to constrain further pH drop. The temperature of the cheese during pressing plays a significant factor; ideally, it has cooled to the point that pH drop is very slow by the time the target is reached, giving plenty of time for the salt to work its way inward.

Again, let me stress -- the above is my own compilation/consolidation of what I have read here and in books; I will not be surprised if some or all of it needs correction from others on this forum with greater knowledge! But the bottom line is that, for me, there is really only one target pH to worry about: 5.3-ish. I do check the bloomies that I make to be sure they get on down in the 4-point-somethings, but unlike the other cheeses, I'm not worried about accidentally leaving it too long and letting the pH get too low; I WANT it to get low.

My $0.02 ...
-- Andy

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 07:18:18 PM »
Dr. Awake:  I think that you and Mal have pretty much got it.  The only thing that I can add is that if the bloomies don't get a low pH (4.5-4.6) they will start to soften via the white molds before the paste has time to change and develop flavor. 

I can appreciate wattlebloke's concern about getting too complicated.  Still, a pH meter is a valuable tool and well worth the money if you stay with the hobby.  I think that the "cheese recipe books" do us a disservice in that they paint a picture that anyone can make great cheese without paying much attention to having proper equipment.  I wonder how many people get these books, try a couple of recipes only to produce some sour tasting crumbly paste, and then give up.  If you look at any plot of pH drop versus time using cultured milk you find the steep part of the curve is in the drop from about 5.9 to 5.1.  It can take milk 4/5 hours to drop from 6.7 to 5.9 and then the rate starts to decline at about 0.3ph per hour.  It is easy to miss 5.2 to 5.4 even with a pH meter if you aren't on top of things.  Before you know it your curd is around 4.9-5.0 and in the sour, crumbly cheese range.  Of course, ounce you're in the 4.9 range the drop starts to slow down appreciably. 

Stinky

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 08:55:55 PM »
Dr. Awake:  I think that you and Mal have pretty much got it.  The only thing that I can add is that if the bloomies don't get a low pH (4.5-4.6) they will start to soften via the white molds before the paste has time to change and develop flavor. 

IIRC, actually they ripen at a slower pace if their pH is higher.

wattlebloke

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Re: Washed curd cheese and pressing
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 09:03:11 PM »
Gentlemen, you have more than adequately addressed my query! Thanks to all :)