Another beginner's question or two about kefir and cheese making

[Bernardsmith]

I've been reading David Asher's book The Art of Natural Cheesemaking, and Asher , around pages 85 - 90 talks about kefir grains being a near perfect source for the bacterial cultures needed for ripening all kinds of cheese because he says that it contains both meso- and thermophilic cultures. But I just saw in a cheese making supplier's site that they claimed that because kefir grains is used to ferment milk at room temperature it in fact does not contain thermophilic bacteria and so (presumably) cannot be used to make those cheeses that require high temperature ripening. Both cannot be right. Who is? 
If  - IF - Asher is right, can kefir be used to ripen milk to make both mesophilic and thermophilic cheeses? And If I use kefir will it produce the white rind on cheese that comes from Geotrichum Candidum? If it does , does this really mean that if I use kefir I do not need to buy packages of culture from a cheese making supplier (unless I want to inoculate the cheese with spores of one kind or another)? 

[Schnecken Slayer]

Milk Kefir grains may contain some of the following depending on their source and Geotrichum is not one of them.

Bacteria Strains Common to Milk Kefir Grains

Lactobacillus acidophilus

Lactobacillus brevis

Lactobacillus casei

Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus

Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. delbrueckii

Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis

Lactobacillus helveticus

Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens subsp. kefiranofaciens

Lactobacillus kefiri

Lactobacillus paracasei subsp. paracasei

Lactobacillus plantarum

Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Lactobacillus sake

Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris

Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis

Lactococcus lactis

Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris

Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. dextranicum

Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. mesenteroides

Pseudomonas

Pseudomonas fluorescens

Pseudomonas putida
Streptococcus thermophilus

Yeast Strains Common to Milk Kefir Grains

Candida humilis

Kazachstania unispora

Kazachstania exigua

Kluyveromyces siamensis

Kluyveromyces lactis

Kluyveromyces marxianus

Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Saccharomyces martiniae
Saccharomyces unisporus

 
*Sources

http://ntur.lib.ntu.edu.tw/bitstream/246246/177589/1/04.pdf

http://depa.fquim.unam.mx/amyd/archivero/Kefir_1_12695.pdf

[Bernardsmith]

Many thanks Schnecken Slayer, but while not wishing to look a gift horse in the mouth (and the paper you link to is very interesting) the authors refer to a very specific source for their kefir and emphasize that the micro flora of the kefir they are investigating "depends primarily on their source" (page 770). In this case the authors analyzed grains obtained from Tibet, stating that the composition of "Irish, Taiwanese, Russian and certain European kefir grains"... is already known (see page 771). My grains came from North America, so the paper by Zhou Jianzhong and others does not really provide any evidence about the grains used here in the US, unless you know that Tibetan grains are source for the SCOBY here.

[lovinglife]

I made one of his white moldy cheese recipes, I did get white mold but I don't know if it was the kefir or the raw goat milk, such a beginner here, I don't even like that type of cheese but had to make it anyway.

[Schnecken Slayer]

What is the brand you have there?

I know here in Oz most websites tell us what is in their particular batches.
eg http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/products/Kefir-Culture.html

[Bernardsmith]

Great question. I got my kefir grains from Cultures for Health and I think I did see that they once posted a list of identified bacteria and yeast. Your question prompted me to email them and hopefully they will send me back a full list of the cultures that have been identified. That said, if memory serves me aright (and it does not always) the list I recall seeing was about 12 inches long. There were dozens of named microbes. The powder (?) you seem to refer to (at Country Brewers) is not the same as kefir grains. I think the powder is manufactured in labs whereas the grains are more organically grown. I may be wrong... but... 

[Schnecken Slayer]

The powder (?) you seem to refer to (at Country Brewers) is not the same as kefir grains. I think the powder is manufactured in labs whereas the grains are more organically grown. I may be wrong... but...

I purchased my Kefir "grains" online and haven't used the country brewers ones so I don't know if theirs are a SCOBY or just a mix of individual cultures.
The ones I purchased are a SCOBY and look like little blobs of jelly after being activated.

[olikli]

My kefir definitely has geotrichum. The coating never is really strong, so the concentration is probably not very high, but I do get it consistently. My grains are of unknown origin. I bought them cheaply on Ebay from someone who was sharing their culture.

[wattlebloke]

Hi Bernard, the list that Shnecken Slayer posted contained Strep thermophilus, which is definitely thermophilic. Further, I use kefir to make yoghurt, cultured at around 40 C, which is also (I think?) in the thermophilic range. If you look further into the book, you will see his photos of rampant Geo coatings when he makes Marcellin.

[Gregore]

I know that our kefir has geo , as I too have seen on the kefir and on a goat cheese I did .


We got ours from  The Kefir Lady

[AnnDee]

My kefir has geo too, but I'm not sure of the origin of the grain. Everytime I make soft cheese with it, they all go wrinkly and brainy on me. When it infected my kombucha scoby, my baby scoby was full of greyish mold.

[Bernardsmith]

I am willing to accept that my kefir MAY have geotrichum but I guess my skepticism is this. Raw milk contains geo. many folk who make cheese use raw milk. I am a towny and do not have access to raw milk so the milk I have has been heat treated. Pasteurization kills the geotrichum so it is not self evident that simply using kefir will supply geotrichum if the source is thought to be in the kefir but is in fact in the milk itself.. but that said, David Asher assures me (by email) that kefir DOES contain geotrichum.

[OzzieCheese]

Just thought I'd add a few bits here.  I have spoken to quite a few people who use Kefir and they to a tee - recommend sourcing your grains from here.

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html   

The main culture houses also supply a 'Kefir Starter' but it is non grain forming and doesn't contain the bio-diversity that the real grains do.  It's this diversity that creates an interesting environment.  Green living Australia, Country brewers and other only provide the culture packs because it has a standard performance and behaviour and will not have anywhere near the cultures that exist in Kefir grains - It's this 'Standardisation' that David is warring against.  Having read his book several times I understand the reasoning behind it. I however do like the known behaviour of the cultures I use but appreciate the romantic notion that David is espousing.

South East Queensland summers are a little fierce to leave milk products to ferment - winter however is when I'll be trying Davids' methods with Doms' Kefir grains.

Could be fun..

-- Mal   

[Schnecken Slayer]

Ah yes, Mine are Dom's as well. I have both milk Kefir and the water Kefir grains from him and they work well.
Just a tip if you do make water kefir, add 1/4 of a caltrate tablet (calcium) as it is a lot easier than the eggshell method of getting the calcium they require.

[Bernardsmith]

Just thought I'd add a few bits here.  I have spoken to quite a few people who use Kefir and they to a tee - recommend sourcing your grains from here.

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html   

The main culture houses also supply a 'Kefir Starter' but it is non grain forming and doesn't contain the bio-diversity that the real grains do.  It's this diversity that creates an interesting environment.  Green living Australia, Country brewers and other only provide the culture packs because it has a standard performance and behaviour and will not have anywhere near the cultures that exist in Kefir grains - It's this 'Standardisation' that David is warring against.  Having read his book several times I understand the reasoning behind it. I however do like the known behaviour of the cultures I use but appreciate the romantic notion that David is espousing.

South East Queensland summers are a little fierce to leave milk products to ferment - winter however is when I'll be trying Davids' methods with Doms' Kefir grains.

Could be fun..

-- Mal   

I live upstate New York and I bought my kefir grains from Cultures for Health. Over the last few months since I bought the grains they have perhaps tripled in size