Author Topic: Potential cheese vat  (Read 3804 times)

Offline FooKayaks2

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Potential cheese vat
« on: May 15, 2016, 12:59:46 AM »
Hi everyone,

I have been lurking here for a fair while now. I have been making cheese for over 4 years now and have learnt a lot of from everyone here. I particular like making alpine cheese. My current cheese project over the last 6 months and probably the next few has been making cheese for my wedding next January. This provided a great excuse to upgrade my small wine fridge  to a 470 litre fridge. In the cheese cave for the wedding already is 1x cloth bound cheddar, 1 x cantal, 1 x Beaufort, 1x appenzellar, 1 x alpkase, and a tomme. Somewhere around 21kg of cheese.

I currently make cheese in a 30l stainless pot on direct heat, I find with careful stirring and attention I manage not too get uneven heating.

I have been keeping my eye out for something larger to make cheese in, not for now but when we move back to Tasmania In a few  years time and have foundation 70-80 litre jacketed stainless steel vessel for what seems like a good price that was used in a micro brewery.

There are a couple of pictures attached. Measurements of the internals are apparently 50cm x 50cm.

My plan for heating was to look at making a small closed loop with a circulation pump and heating element and a PID controller.

The reason for my post was that I am after some opinions on the vessel and what limitations others can see.

I would probably prefer something wider and less deep, and I am going to have to address the pipe lengths from the vessel to the valving for cleaning etc.

What does everyone think?

Thanks in advance
Mathew

Kern

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 01:49:20 AM »
It looks like an excellent vat for making large/multiple cheese wheels.  I figure you can make batches using about 80 liters of milk with the internal dimensions given.  You'll probably have to come up with a way to seal the hole for the drain and then add a screen for draining whey after it has been cut and stirred.   I'd also make a cutting harp that works with your vat.  Watch a few You Tube videos to come up with some ideas for this.  I'd probably come with with some type of stirring mechanism so you don't have to stand on a step ladder for an hour with a small canoe paddle.  Finally, you'll have to make lots of trials (heating water) to "calibrate" your heating method so that you don't overshoot your target temperature.  Some of the cheeses on your list require culturing at around 40C and then heating to 53C over and hour or less.  Be sure you have enough heating capacity to be able to achieve this.   

Offline Bantams

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 07:00:51 PM »
For heating the vat, you can just use a propane burner set underneath (fill the jacket up with water first).  Look up Northland Sheep Dairy on Youtube for a video of their cheese making process with a similar setup.

Kern

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 10:48:43 PM »
Direct propane heat will not work on FooKayaks2's vat since it is jacketed.

Offline FooKayaks2

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2016, 09:18:04 AM »
Hi guys,

I think Kern is right, besides I am just as well to buy a large pot if I am going to use a propane burner.

I had looked at setting up a closed loop with a circulation pump and 2 RIMS beer brewing heating elements for the heating of the jacket. I am pretty confident that it should work well.

However I don't think I am going to buy the jacketed vessel, I have looked into pricing on buying a square Asta eisman vat and while it is double my estimated setup costs for this vat it may give me more options when I am actually in a position to easily acquire large quantities of milk.

If any one in southeastern Australia is looking for a vat this one is on gumtree.

Thanks for your advice Kern

Mathew

jwalker

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
Direct propane heat will not work on FooKayaks2's vat since it is jacketed.

In my opinion , It will actually , assuming that the bottom is water jacketed as well , a flame would heat the water within the jacket which would in turn heat the milk in the vat , it would act as a kind of double boiler , and would be a very economical way to get set up.

As long as the jacket is vented and can't build pressure it would be safe.

It would however be a little hard to precisely control the temperature until you had it figured out , the water would continue to heat the milk for a time after the flame is shut off , but with practice , it could be done , even the double boilers are somewhat that way.

If there is no water jacket in the bottom , then no , it won't work.

Closed loop system would be better , but more costly.

Kern

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 01:44:48 AM »
The advantage of direct fired propane heat on a single wall vessel is that you can turn the flame off and there is very little heat left in the vessel walls for the milk to absorb.  This makes temperature control simple and direct.  The disadvantage is that once the gas is turned off the vessel begins cooling.  Direct fired gas is a boon up to the time of adding rennet and is again effective once the curd has been cut and is being stirred (and cooked if the recipe calls for this).  A water jacketed double walled vessel is advantageous during the renneting period as it better holds the coagulating milk at a steady temperature.  As the vessel size increases the increased mass of milk negates a lot of this advantage since the surface area (where heat is lost) to volume (mass) ratio decreases significantly making heat retention less of a problem.  All one really has to do after turning the gas off is wrap the vat in some insulating material and typically the heat loss is quite small.

The rate of heating anything is directly proportional to the difference in temperature between the heating media (hot gas or hot water) and the item being heated.  One would have to use water at a temperature at least 20-30F higher than the milk to heat the milk to culturing temperature in an acceptable period of time.  As the milk approaches the goal temperature it would be necessary to lower the temperature of the water in the jacket to the goal temperature so as not to overshoot the goal.  One starts to get into some elaborate process control equipment to accomplish this.  For this reason alone I'd go for a single walled vessel and direct fired propane heat for batches less than 100-150 liters.   

jwalker

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 01:03:14 PM »
One would have to use water at a temperature at least 20-30F higher than the milk to heat the milk to culturing temperature in an acceptable period of time.  As the milk approaches the goal temperature it would be necessary to lower the temperature of the water in the jacket to the goal temperature so as not to overshoot the goal.

And I said "It would however be a little hard to precisely control the temperature until you had it figured out , the water would continue to heat the milk for a time after the flame is shut off , but with practice , it could be done , even the double boilers are somewhat that way."


Same thing , although , I was talking in layman's terms. ;D

I had to do the same thing when I used a double boiler , that's why I don't use one anymore.

It is a nice big vat though , and if it was cheap enough , I myself would give it a go.

Offline sprocket

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2016, 04:50:20 AM »
Direct propane heat will not work on FooKayaks2's vat since it is jacketed.

In my opinion , It will actually , assuming that the bottom is water jacketed as well , a flame would heat the water within the jacket which would in turn heat the milk in the vat , it would act as a kind of double boiler , and would be a very economical way to get set up.

As long as the jacket is vented and can't build pressure it would be safe.

It would however be a little hard to precisely control the temperature until you had it figured out , the water would continue to heat the milk for a time after the flame is shut off , but with practice , it could be done , even the double boilers are somewhat that way.

If there is no water jacket in the bottom , then no , it won't work.

Closed loop system would be better , but more costly.

When we first started making cheese, we used exactly this method.  We'd found an old steam kettle on Craigslist (about 60 gallons) for ~ 1000 bucks, and bought a 100 dollar propane burner.  It was a very inexpensive way to start making cheese, compared to other systems.

The water jacket worked out well, both in terms of retaining heat, but also in preventing scorching of the milk.  We have never had a case where we've had milk scorched onto the interior, which I would fear were the flame applied directly to a single wall vessel.  Normally when heating, we kill the burner several degrees before our target temperature, and it hits the right temperature 99 percent of the time.

You do need to be cautious about CO2/CO building up in the room, so proper venting and a carbon monoxide alarm is essential.

Kern

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Re: Potential cheese vat
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2016, 03:46:53 PM »
You do need to be cautious about CO2/CO building up in the room, so proper venting and a carbon monoxide alarm is essential.

Excellent point.  I'm happy the water jacket worked out for you.