Author Topic: using kefir as my culture  (Read 3421 times)

Offline Bernardsmith

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using kefir as my culture
« on: October 09, 2016, 11:45:12 PM »
I make kefir and use the kefir as the culturing agent for my cheeses. Not had any significant problems but I do have a question:  how different is the time it takes for freeze dried cultures to provide the milk with the bacteria it needs to produce the acidity etc compared to my use of say, a quarter cup (or more) of kefir. Should I be testing the pH of the milk before adding rennet or before I pour off the whey or begin to press the curds or should I simply use the lengths of time suggested in the recipes I am using? Thanks

UpMyKilt

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2016, 12:59:41 AM »
This is a good question! I recently tried to make a Bulgarian style "sirene" which is a brined cheese. The instructions I found were quite general - but included a buttermilk culture as well as Bulgarian yogurt. I made my own Bulgarian yogurt with  l. bulgaricus and streptococcus thermophilus (the cultures come from Bulgaria).

When I went to make the cheese, for 4 litres of milk, I added about two tablespoons of Bulgarian yogurt first, then 1/8 tsp. of Probat 222.

So far, the cheese is very nice! But I have no idea what it's supposed to be like :)

Offline Gregore

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2016, 04:04:39 AM »
Yes you should expect huge changes in timing .   The closest analogy would be changing the temperature of something you were baking  you would expect the times of bake to change .

The recipe you are using is based on some ones experience using an exact amount of culture .

If you do not know the ph markers for the cheese you want to make some one here may know.

Offline Bernardsmith

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2016, 11:36:25 AM »
Is there a published source for the preferred pH for standard types of cheese?

valley ranch

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 08:22:38 PM »
At what point do you test pH?

Offline awakephd

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2016, 08:51:01 PM »
I'll tackle these questions in reverse, starting with Valley Ranch's question about when to test the pH:

Yes.

As in, you test the pH at multiple stages along the way, partly depending on the type of cheese you are making. For some, like a camembert or some types of blue, or for a Cantal, you are going to let the curds bottom out in pH regardless, so I personally don't often bother to check the pH on these. But for pretty much any other type of cheese, checking the pH is very, very helpful. For me, the key check points are these:

  • Check the pH at draining - some cheeses (e.g., "Swiss" types such as Emmental or Gruyere) need to retain more of the minerals, which would get leached out by a more acidic whey; thus, these cheeses may call for draining the curd at whey pH of around 6.35 or so. (Making sure you get the curds fully cooked by that pH is part of the art!)
  • Check the pH after draining, while cheddaring or while waiting for mozarella curds to reach the right acidity for stretching - generally you are shooting for pH (of curd, not whey) of around 5.3 or so. At this point, you will stretch the mozarella, or mill and salt the cheddar curds; the latter will greatly slow down/stop the acidification.
  • Check the pH while pressing a cheese that has not yet been salted, e.g., an alpine style, or Gouda, or parma-style, or so on. For these cheeses, you want to get it out of the press and into the brine (or begin dry-salting) once the pH (again, of the curd, not of any expelled whey) reaches 5.4-5.3 - if you let it go lower, the cheese will come out very crumbly. Again, part of the art is making sure that you have sufficient time to drain and press the curd before reaching the target pH.

As for a book (published source) that helps with this, and a world of other questions, I find it hard to beat Ginaclis Caldwell's Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking.

As for how the use of kefir would affect the timing and pH curves -- the only answer is to make some cheese and test the pH as you go, keeping good notes. In fact, the same is true when using the freeze-dried cultures - I have found that some packets seem to be far more active than others, so it is important to get a feel for how quickly a given packet of culture acidifies, and adjust accordingly.
-- Andy

valley ranch

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2016, 12:30:46 AM »
If you drain Mozzarella and the curd is say 7 if you wait will it become more acid as it drains of sits?

Offline Bernardsmith

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2016, 01:27:52 PM »
Andy - Thank you very much. Very useful and I have the Caldwell but if memory serves me (and it doesn't always) she does not indicate preferred pH for each recipe. So I assume (correctly, I hope) that the pH is for the kind of cheese?

Offline awakephd

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2016, 02:16:00 PM »
Valley, it will IF you have innocculated it with culture (or are using fresh, raw milk with its natural cultures). If you are using the 30-minute method, e.g., adding acid, it will not change unless there are some natural bacteria in the milk.

And by the way, if your curd is measuring a pH of 7 ... something is wrong with your milk! :) As I understand it, fresh milk should be 6.7 to 6.65 or so. Interestingly, the milk I am buying from the store is measuring very low - only 6.57. But it is still working - as well as store-bought P&H milk ever can - so I continue to use it.
-- Andy

Offline awakephd

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2016, 02:30:59 PM »
Bernard, you are right that she doesn't call out pH for every recipe, or for every step along the way. My take on it -- which may be corrected by others more knowledgeable! -- is that 1) if there are pH targets for a cheese in the same family, they likely apply to any other cheese in the family unless specifically noted otherwise, and 2) if no pH target is given, even for the family of cheese, it may not matter too much for that particular step or that particular type of cheese.

One other thought -- which is implied in my earlier post, but not made explicit -- is that, in general, the problem I face is not trying to get the pH low enough; on the contrary, it is making sure the pH doesn't get too low at a given stage of the process. Again, for some cheeses such as the camembert/brie/etc. types or blues or Cantal, the pH is intended to bottom out, so I find those makes to be much more forgiving.

With a cheddar-type make, I think you can get away with letting the pH go too low in the cheddaring phase; the taste will be good, but the texture will just be even more crumbly, and it will be that much harder to get a good knit. If you let something like a Gouda get too low while in the press, you likely will wind up with something very tasty, but not really a Gouda - it will be closer to a cheddar in taste, and it will be crumbly rather than smoothly flexible. Or at least, that was my experience with my first two or three Goudas, until I got a pH meter and realized that they needed to come out of the press MUCH sooner than the recipe said.

With mozzarella, you have only a narrow window of pH that will work properly for stretching - too high and it won't stretch; too low and it won't stretch. This is part of what makes mozzarella one of the more challenging cheeses!
-- Andy

valley ranch

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2016, 03:17:45 PM »
RE: pH, I just picked a number.

Offline awakephd

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 08:27:00 PM »
RE: pH, I just picked a number.

I understand - you weren't meaning a specific pH, so you went with a "neutral" number.

:):):)
-- Andy

Offline Bernardsmith

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2016, 12:49:54 AM »
I guess my concern is the following: most recipes tend to use freeze dried cultures and when the recipe calls for a 1/2 t or whatever the measure is and suggests that there is no need to wait before adding the rennet does that same time frame apply if I am adding kefir? And if the time to "ripen" is say 15 minutes if I add kefir will my cheese develop the same characteristics in 15 minutes or should I be allowing the milk to culture for a few hours or overnight? I was using the pH as an indicator of the amount of bacterial culture in the milk so if the pH dropped to say, 6 or 5.8 after the culture was added when the culture was lab manufactured freeze dried then I presume I should be waiting for the same pH even if that took all night...

Offline Gregore

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2016, 05:20:08 AM »
The only reason for waiting when adding powdered culture is for them to wake up and start multiplying .

If how ever you are adding a live culture you should be able to add Rennet straight away , especially if you are using a kefir that was proofed over night.

If you have a ph meter you are looking for a drop of about  0.1 after the culture is added  before rennet is added .

Offline Bernardsmith

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Re: using kefir as my culture
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2016, 03:09:55 PM »
aha! Sp that is the secret - the 0.1 drop in the pH.. Thanks Gregore. That, I think, was what I was looking for.