Author Topic: What Cheddar Culture do you use?  (Read 4628 times)

Offline zenith1

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 03:14:46 PM »
Kazu is also available from Glengarry. I believe that it is a Danisco product.
 Edit to include: http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/index.htm
Keith


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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 07:51:51 PM »
I found a little more info on the cutures:

MA 4001 - The MA 4001/4002 series is predominantly a blend of standard mesophilic lactic acid cultures plus a S. thermophilis for quicker acid production during cheesemaking. Can be used for soft or hard cheeses. Also contains Lactococcus lactis subsp. diacetylactis which is a mild gas producing bacteria which will produce some openess in the texture of hard cheeses.


Kazu - same as MA 4001/MA 4002 but has no thermophile. Contains L. helveticus. Good for gouda and cheddar.

Offline zenith1

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 09:10:28 PM »
great info, I have added that to the rest of the stuff floating around upstairs!
Keith

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2009, 09:23:24 PM »
Thanks for the info.

But why would we want any openess in a hard cheese like cheddar? 
Also, how does the increase in rate to proper acid levels affect taste/smell/texture?  Any change at all?
 
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2009, 11:38:35 PM »
Diacetylactis is used not so much for openness as for producing aroma and a "butter" organoleptic sensation by producing diacetyl or its precursor, α-acetolactate. The curd cutting and pressing schedule has more to do with openness. Pressing under the whey, for example, or pressing under a high weight/psi for cheddar should mitigate the open texture issue for cheese.

The different acid production levels have to do with metabolization rate at various temps and production of L or D (+ or - isomers) lactic acid. For cheddar, you want fast acidification at the typical mesophilic temps of 80-90 F. The acidity affects texture and taste more than smell. The salt level and pH at salting also significantly influences proteolysis. You can use a bacteria with high acid production to save time in manufacturing so long as there is proper quality control and the cheese is salted at the proper pH, pressed, and cooled to stop or retard the lactose metabolysis.

In short, for home producers, the important thing is to ensure there is some diacetylactis and some L. Helveticus for cheddar. diacetylactis adds a buttery richness and L. Helveticus helps to control bitter peptide formation. The rest is proper affinage and controlling temp and humidity. Well, that and milk and the entire cheddaring process.
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Offline zenith1

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 09:53:49 AM »
This thread was one of the most informative that I have read on the forum. Great information by all, and thanks to Wayne for starting the thread. I'm sure we all benefited from this one.
Keith

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 11:16:17 AM »
agrees with zenith1, there are some quality players here that post very informative information.

I am familiar with diacetyl as it is a byproduct from Malo Lactic Fermentation in winemaking. It does produce a distinctive buttery aroma.

I may alter my cheddar formula to include some L. Helveticus based on this thread,
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Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »
I would just add an aside that calling any culture a "gouda" or "cheddar" culture is misleading.  while it may be true that many people use that culture for the purpose, there is more than one way to skin a cat.  As an example I work with two cheesemakers.  One is from france, the other is from Switzerland.  Last week we got into a lively discussion about cultures used for brie/cam.  It turns out the culture I was using as my main acifidifer the swiss guy never used because he thought it was only for aroma, while the frenchman was using a culture I would only use in harder cheeses.  It all comes down to how you use the culture and what results you are trying to get. 

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 07:16:36 PM »
It really is amazing.  Seems to come down to understanding what is is you are trying to accomplish.  The cultures are merely a tool.  A means to and end.


And the key is is just understanding the process, and understanding what you are trying to do.

Much like making wine.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 07:30:51 AM by Wayne Harris »
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 09:38:07 PM »
To make it even more confusing, there are at least dozens of strains/families of each culture, and the strain you get depends on the manufacturer. For example, for L. Helveticus, not all strains help significantly with bitter peptides, it's actually a select 5-10 according to studies. Similarly for diacetylactis, the rate of mg diacetyl produced per liter varies among strains. And if you use a mother culture, then that rate can change over time with mutations, bacteria adaptations, colony dominant strain dynamics, etc.

I really like your wine analogy because the biochemical complexities are similar. With wine you have all sorts of complexities like dissolved O2 for kreusen/initial yeast growth, available N and minerals for yeast cell wall strength to resist osmotic pressures, as well as initial tannin extraction through enzymatic and yeast action, and then during aging the rate of oak compound extracted, and how it interacts with tannin and SO2 levels, evaporation in the barrel, and thousands of other issues.

I think cheese is actually more straightforward :).

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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 10:48:30 PM »
It's like anything else ... take 100 people and ask for their recipe for apple pie and you'll get 100 diferent recipes - but it's all apple pie! It doesn't make one recipe wrong or right just their style of apple pie!

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 07:36:08 AM »
That's very true. Deb.

What I want to do is understand what makes the best "apple pie",

and then be able to accurately reproduce that "apple pie" over and over.

And as a winemaker, I agree with Linuxboy,  I think makin cheese is a bit more straightforward.
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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: What Cheddar Culture do you use?
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 08:31:00 PM »
I understand where you are going Wayne it just difficult to determine what you favorite version might be. In NY they think their cheese is better than Vermont and Vermont thinks their better than Wisconsin etc.

In you effort to find perfection just don't forget to have fun.  ;)