Author Topic: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe  (Read 50725 times)

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #285 on: June 27, 2012, 03:08:38 AM »
Doing a rematch today, Tomme with lipase and black pepper corns.  now, thats spicey!
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #286 on: June 27, 2012, 10:19:16 AM »
Watch out for lipase!  If your milk is reasonably fatty, lipase can make a really horrible flavor. If you must try it, I would do away with the peppercorns (let that milk speak for itself) and try 1/4 of the lipase dose. Remember that peppercorns and such elements bring their own flora, pH, fermentation, and the shifting of minerals and essential oils into the cheese during aging.  I would first practice at getting an honest pure Tomme perfected and when your Tommes are amazing, start playing with additions. That's me though...

At the end of the day, nothing compares (in my personal view) to a naturally cultured, naturally molded aged cheese that tells the story of animal, milk, terroir, cave and cheesemaker's skills -with big flavor, texture, aroma -accompanied with beautiful presentation. Herbs, nuts, berries, spices, truffles, seeds tend to distract from that focus and cover up a lot of the goodness and your hard work.  Washing with wine, liqueur or beer is a bit different because they are used as surface cultures and not as flavorants. Their microbes act on the cheese, and they too can tell the story of terroir.  There are of course some exceptions to that (mainly fresh cheeses with herbs, some Goudas with caraway seeds, Pecorino Pepato, etc.), but when it comes to Tomme and most other cheeses, I am a purist

Offline Boofer

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Parkland, Washington
  • Posts: 4,226
  • Cheeses: 204
  • Contemplating cheese
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #287 on: June 27, 2012, 11:54:08 AM »
I have had good luck with the minimally used herbs & seeds I have added to my cheeses. "Less is more." My Leiden with cumin seeds and Esrom with herbes de Provence are delightful cheeses that are not difficult to eat and enjoy. I am agreeing with you, Yoav, in case that was too subtle.  ;)

My experience with lipase has been with two failures of Manchego. In both of those cases, the bite and flavor of the lipase was overpowering and I found the cheeses very difficult to eat. I believe I had used 1/4 tsp in 4 gallons of milk. Too much.

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #288 on: June 27, 2012, 01:17:13 PM »
I decided to skip the pepper corns as I dont really like the aroma coming out of the "pepper water" (I'l save that for a springy gouda) and do 1\2 the lipase needed for the volume of milk using the low end concentration.

I'm filling up the fridge for the summer so I'l be trying all sort of things (different rind treatments, spice ,full fat ,skimed, washed curd, non washed curd) so by winter i'l be able to crack them open and have an understanding on what I like and what not to repeat -whats worth to try again\perfect and what is a waste of time.
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #289 on: June 27, 2012, 06:39:03 PM »
Great. FYI, Tomme is historically a skimmed-fat cheese. Of course, lipase will accelerate the breakdown of fats so if you use lowfat or nonfat milk it will be odd. On the other hand, if you are looking for a more spicy, nutty, sweet alpine/dutch/swiss/italian flavor, perhaps you should consider using a farmstead culture that contains Helveticus (such as Kazu or a mix of LH and MM cultures). This should be combined with a touch (not a full dose) of Shermanii. Add LBC culture if you have any. Use about 20%-25% less salt in this recipe.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #290 on: June 28, 2012, 05:19:18 AM »
I partly skimed the milk.
Unfortunatlly the milk was contaminated during the make (I was doing a super make, an 8 liter blue batch on the table and 15 liter tomme on the stove at the same time),
The tommes (a completly filled 1.5kg mold and 0.5kg mold) were spongy and blowted (coliforms?) but the blue was perfectly fine. (the milk was thermised, 50c for 20min)
I think my dad decided to take out the trash or something silly like that while I was resting, explaining about importance of sanitation to him is like talking to the wall :)

Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #291 on: June 29, 2012, 11:13:54 AM »
Oh that sucks. The kitchen is off limits to my wife, guests etc. when cheesemaking happens. I empty trash first, spray all counters with San Star sanitizer, spray the empty trash with it and put a fresh bag in it, spray all utensils, containers, moulds and pots I am about to use, spray the backsplash too. The sink too must be clean and sprayed. No open bread, flour, fruits or and any other thing that invites contamination. I am a bit crazy, I know -but this really works and gives me peace of mind; one less thing to worry about.

Bloating could be coliforns or yeasts. It also happens when there are antibodies in the milk such as in the case of colostrum. Check and see when the animal gave birth.... if this is first milk -this may be the case (however I doubt it because it seems your other cheese from the same milk worked well).

I also wouldn't do multiple batches of blue and non-blue at the same time. It's too easy to cross-contaminate BOTH cheeses.

As for your thermalization... I think this may be the culprit and source of your trouble! 50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in. Moreover, 20 minutes is not enough to make them tired.  In other words, instead of pasteurizing, you did the opposite - you have just grown a fresh giant community of bacteria all over your milk (and your dad moving about with the trash could may have just seeded it right in).  Batch pasteurization needs to take place at 66°C and be held at that temperature (in a closed vessel) for a MINIMUM of 30 minutes. It needs to be chilled rapidly and instantly then to your target temperature for inoculation or refrigeration (it cannot just be chilled to room temperature because it would spend too much time in the "thrive zone" temperature for bacterial growth). This is really important practice to have down.

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #292 on: June 29, 2012, 02:10:53 PM »
I followed an advice from LB regarding thermization instead of pasteurization.

Quote
Pretty straightforward. Higher temps and longer times break down more proteins (including enzymes, which are types of proteins). So if you wanted to retain more raw milk character, and were reasonably assured of the cleanness of the milk, taking to 120-125 for 10 mins might be enough. If you were ultra paranoid, might want to take it to 135F for 20 mins. It's all about the lethality curve and risk vector and acceptable risk profile for the style of cheese, incorporating probabilities given source (including factors like pooled vs unpooled milk.


The heat was rised very quickly,held and the milk was cooled to culture temp fairly fast.  It worked fine with my previews make from the same milk few weeks ago. I dont think the cows gave birth recently as there were only two calves seperated. 
I think I can pin it down on sanitation.  I need to get a hold on this no rinse sanitizer.   
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #293 on: June 29, 2012, 02:50:30 PM »
Quote
50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in.
Curious, Yoav, which pathogens, and what n log reduction, if any, do expect for each common one?
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Cheeses: 127
    • Boone Creek Creamery
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #294 on: June 29, 2012, 05:23:58 PM »
Actually, the optimum temperature for human pathogens is 37C or 98F, just like the human body. And most significant pathogens, like coliforms, are destroyed around 140F (or well before). In fact, that is the legal target temperature that most USA health departments and the FDA require for serving hot food. Yeast can be pretty resilient sometimes, but most yeast starts dying around 120F. By 140F they are pretty much dead.

Low-temperature pasteurization at 145F is a well proven method and preserves some of the protein and enzyme structure in milk, which is obviously good for cheese making. Pasteurization at higher temperatures is actually overkill for most pathogens, but it also destroys most spoilage bacteria. Listeria is an exception and can even survive "normal" pasteurization at 160F for 15 seconds. There are a couple of spore forming bacteria like Clostridium (responsible for "late blowing") that often survive pasteurization. Pretty obvious when it happens. Sanitation, not pasteurization, is the key for Listeria & Clostridium.

I do blues and other cheeses together all the time and have no problem with cross contamination. In fact, every Tuesday is double cheese day for me. I make a 38 gallon batch of "regular" pressed cheese in the morning, clean and sanitize everything, then make a batch of blue in the afternoon.

A moldy Stilton is a thing of beauty. Yes, you eat the rind. - Ed
www.boonecreekcreamery.com


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline elkato

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Queretaro Mexico
  • Posts: 128
  • Cheeses: 10
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #295 on: June 30, 2012, 08:42:00 AM »
Tomer1;
How can you tell a possible contamination in the curd stage, I know you noticed the bloating, but how obvious is this change.. I think it has not happened to me but I am really worried and want to be able to spot it if it does happen

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #296 on: June 30, 2012, 08:46:43 AM »
It turned into a bath sponge.  I could squize it and it made a skuts skwoouts sound.   I didnt open it because I was pissed and late for my ride but I'm sure it had milions of tiny holes. :)
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline dbudge55

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Missoula, MT
  • Posts: 98
  • Cheeses: 9
    • Cultures of Corruption
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #297 on: June 30, 2012, 10:37:25 AM »
"skuts skwoouts" Man, I like that! A new high-water mark for cheese making onamonapia.
Laissez le rouleau grand fromage - Dave Budge

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #298 on: July 04, 2012, 09:50:28 AM »
Tomme progression at 3 weeks, washed twice a week. 
Humidity is a bit too high so I got some linens coverage but its fairly dry to the touch not slimy and it smells increadibly fruity as I was hoping for.
I got a timer for the humidifier so Im trying to keep it at 85% in hoping that something alse will grow and add to the linens,  theres is some white stuff that keeps trying to grow at this one spot and I rub it off during washing.
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 108
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #299 on: July 10, 2012, 04:50:04 PM »
Tomer the cheese looks fantastic! Don't worry about high humidity. This isn't a Camembert. Let it rind and go nuts. Too early to let it go dry.  Did I read your Hebrew label correctly? Tomme Port?  You used Port wine? That should be interesting!

About the other thing...
Quote
50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in.
Curious, Yoav, which pathogens, and what n log reduction, if any, do expect for each common one?

Eh, not to be disgusting... but
  • Fecal coliforms are optimal in the 36°C-44°C range and body (or milk) pH of 6-7
  • Salmonella still grows at 48ºC. It too love body temperature and pH, though some strains can survive 4.5pH and others can survive 9pH
  • E.Coli incubates in body temperature/acidity as well. At 25°C it is below-optimal and grows at half the speed. 37°C is optimal (at 6-7pH). At 45°C it still grows but the rate declines to half again
  • Listeria is also on the same range or temperatures, though it is almost indifferent to pH
  • Clostridium perfringens can multiply at up to 53°C
My HCCAP handbook and FDA don't have a guideline for 50°C. They start at 54°C where it would take 112 minutes to exhaust pathogens. As many of you know it's exponential: at 55°C it takes just 8.5 minutes, at At 60°C it's already at 8.5 minutes, At 65°C it only takes 50 seconds and at 170°C it's a measly 5 seconds. And so, I am sure that 50°C then is WELL beyond 112 minutes. My point is that 20 minutes at 50°C is still pretty happening to some pathogens, don't you agree?

But back to the subject, I may have not read it is far enough back. Pav, what was the reason to suggest 50°C thermolization at 20 minute in the first place? What does it do? Sailor, do you do that too?  I feel like I misunderstood something here
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 04:56:20 PM by iratherfly »