Author Topic: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe  (Read 50154 times)

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #300 on: July 10, 2012, 04:56:30 PM »
I thermize at more than 50C when I do it. Often will go to 65. Depends on the risk vector and milk.

I agree that some pathogens survive at 50C, but the thing about those HACCP guidelines is that they're not really based on a realistic assessment of risk vector. They're lab numbers. If one starts with low counts and wants to take a precaution, then a 5 log reduction isn't as critical. It's not pasteurization

Will answer the rest of your post tomorrow when I have time.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #301 on: July 10, 2012, 05:13:52 PM »
Ah! That's different; 65°C is a world away from 50°C for pathogens and nothing will grow (especially if you do it at 20 minutes).  I agree that HCCAP numbers are well within an exaggerated safety envelope.  Knowing Tomer I assumed he also used raw milk hence my comments. But still I don't get the purpose of the process. Is this just to isolate surviving thermophilic strains?

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #302 on: July 10, 2012, 05:17:26 PM »
middle ground. You inactivate pathogens that presumably are low load due to milk freshness. Reduces risk. Yet retain most of the properties of raw milk. It does inactivate milk enzymes, though.  Not sure if you've ever done this experiment, but it's a fun one. Take the same milk and apply different heat treatments, make same cheese in one day. And taste each one. Will be able to see exactly what the heat treatment does. For me, thermization is a middle ground for when I feel especially paranoid that yet enables flavor preservation.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #303 on: July 10, 2012, 05:20:57 PM »
Funny, it seems I always go the absolute opposite way.  I cool the milk and pre-inoculate it to enable my lactic cultures to take over.  Would be interesting to try your way. Never tried this before!

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #304 on: July 10, 2012, 05:47:23 PM »
Yes, this is what I also do now as of last milk cycle. I achieve better pathogen inactivation this way. Remember we had a chat.. last year about Normandie practices and how slower acidification pre rennet has been the practice across all classic cheeses. I came to that conclusion after doing several deep dives into protomal/archetypal cheeses such as parmigiano. It's the better way to go. But, suppose there's the situation where someone buys milk, has no clue about quality, is paranoid, but doesn't want to pasteurize. Thermization is a reasonable middle ground. Eliminates not only pathogens, cleans up psychrotrophs, too, which are terrible for flavor.
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Offline Tomer1

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #305 on: July 10, 2012, 06:17:14 PM »
Quote
cleans up psychrotrophs, too, which are terrible for flavor.
Arent these only a concern when cooling raw milk and storing it before warming it up again to ripening\renneting temp?

My starter gets into the milk less then 2 hours after milking which I assume is fairly fast\good.
Im gone brave up and do a raw milk batch with a grana type this week as it ages for well well over 90 days.

I'm not sure how to handle the milk though so I can get enough cream to rise for skimming, without decrese in pH by milk flora as the milk is still fairly close to cow body temp. 33-34c.   great ripening temp.
Should I cool it rapidly to below 20c?
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #306 on: July 10, 2012, 10:21:00 PM »
Yes Pav, I remember that chat well. The situation you describe sounds familiar. That's how I felt every time I got my mystery raw milk from the speakeasy secter underground local milk coop.  I am happy to report I just found an incredible raw milk source; local and tested, legal and supervised, you know exactly what cow did what.  No more fearful cheesemaking with that!

Only issue is with their sheep's milk - it's way too expensive to make cheese from.  A 4Lb Tomme would cost me $160 in milk. Huh?  Cow will cost about $24 for the same.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #307 on: July 11, 2012, 02:23:05 AM »
Quote
Arent these only a concern when cooling raw milk and storing it before warming it up again to ripening\renneting temp?
Not only but also. Mostly, it does concern longer-term storage to prevent lipase development from psychrotrophs.
Quote
My starter gets into the milk less then 2 hours after milking which I assume is fairly fast\good.
Im gone brave up and do a raw milk batch with a grana type this week as it ages for well well over 90 days.

Do it! Really, it should be fine.

I'm not sure how to handle the milk though so I can get enough cream to rise for skimming, without decrese in pH by milk flora as the milk is still fairly close to cow body temp. 33-34c.   great ripening temp.
Should I cool it rapidly to below 20c?

No, not if using so soon. I would make a fuller fat grana type. It won't last as long, will mature faster.
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Offline Tomer1

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #308 on: July 11, 2012, 03:51:54 AM »
I could try a whole milk romano.

So your saying that leaving it to stand for 1.5-2 hours so it can be skimed will not "jeopardize" the milk?
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #309 on: July 11, 2012, 03:34:57 PM »
No, there's no technical or other reason to chill milk to grade A or mess with it if you are making cheese same day.

When I was a boy, living without refrigeration, we left milk out on the counter after the milking and would drink it. After a day or so it would start souring a little and after 2-3 days, would clabber. And we would drink the clabber and cook with it or make farmer cheese. For cheesemaking, the big concern is twofold: contamination and runaway acidity... and both re controllable through sanitation and good handling.
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Offline Tomer1

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #310 on: July 11, 2012, 05:55:10 PM »
My question is what stopping from naturally accuring bacteria in the milk (which is very warm as its 30c outside and is still warm from the milking) from producing acid while milk fat portion moves to the top?

Im not comfortable making cheese with naturally acidified milk. At least not with animals i'm not rising and milking myself or at least from milk coming from an artisinal dairy which works in this manner and is successful (in both product quality and safty).
This milk is basically sold to the big co-op dairies.  quality is not prime goal but economics.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #311 on: July 11, 2012, 06:38:20 PM »
Quote
from producing acid while milk fat portion moves to the top?
A few initial mechanisms. One, lactoperoxidase inhibits initial bacterial growth. Two, cream as it rises takes the bacteria up. Three, calcium buffering ability. But this only goes so far.

The point I am making is that you want this acidity. It helps to make a better cheese. The issue becomes when it runs away... when the strains, handling, and processing all do not coincide, and the curve does not fit the cheese style.
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Offline Tomer1

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #312 on: July 11, 2012, 06:53:34 PM »
Ok, I catch your drift.  Going (or starting) from any where between pH 6.60 to pH 6.80 in fresh raw milk is really not the issue but I've got to start my make before I get to the point where the "train is going downhill" and 6.60 might get to 6.50 in less then an hour causing me to miss my renneting point or rennet an overly acidified milk producing a different result from desired.

So...bottom line. Expirience.   Untill I reach such expertise.  should I monitor the standing milk for pH "developments" or even lactic acid production? say limit it....   Im gone let it stand untill Max pH=>6.60 ?


Thanks again, these are very valuable tips which I havent been able to pick up in any technical or non technical book.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:59:23 PM by Tomer1 »
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #313 on: July 11, 2012, 08:04:34 PM »
You can go a bit lower before renetting, or change the style. Can do 6.0 for semi lactics, 6.45 for bloomies, 6.5 for many continentals. Where acidity is an issue especially is for the high calcium cheeses... parmigiano, granas, gruyere, etc. The rest are rather forgiving. But yes, experience is everything here because milk and flora are so variable
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Offline Tomer1

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #314 on: July 16, 2012, 01:16:51 PM »
The now 40-50 days old orange tomme (recently started to shift direction toward some white geo dusting) which was thermized at 50c degrees for 20 minutes has a slight italian (lipase-gammy) smell to the rind (above the basic fruity notes from the wash) so I presume the heat treatment did not denature the milk's enzymes.   I like it!
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