Author Topic: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe  (Read 48919 times)

Online ArnaudForestier

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #135 on: January 28, 2011, 05:32:41 AM »
Chris, reason for the confusion is because there are as many possible rinds out there as there are people who make them. There are maybe a half dozen major types. What cultures do you have on hand?

geo with b linens usually makes for a smelly type, limberger rind. PLA makes for a wheat-colored, rustic type, pungent and complex rind.


Not very familiar with PLA, Pav.  I note it's considered a typical "morge" blend, which appeals.  Would you consider this a more "traditional" approach than using one's own cocktail of SR3, Geo, KL71, Mycodore - or is the kluvero and Mycodore just another "terroir" expression, seen in plenty of tommes?  (Have to admit, too, there is a certain alchemist's joy of using one's own pure strains, and blending them....but that's a different question).  Basically:  is this morge blend a good representation of what I see described as "morge" in process descriptions (here, for instance).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 05:55:47 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #136 on: January 28, 2011, 05:53:19 AM »
There are all sorts of blends for morge type mixes. PLA is just one of them. Mixing yourself and buying premixed are both valid approaches. Yes, PLA is fairly representational of the style, but there's a large diversity here.
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Offline Chris_Abrahamson

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #137 on: January 28, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »
I have on hand - PLA,  GEO 13, GEO 17, B. Linens LR

If I used the PLA would I combine it with any geo or is there enough geo in the PLA blend by itself.

I did use flora danica as the starter so I'm suspecting that may influence the wash selection

Thanks

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2011, 10:02:03 AM »
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.
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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #139 on: January 28, 2011, 02:33:20 PM »
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.

Oh, great.  Well, I guess y'all can look forward to pics of "bubble gum tomme." :o
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Offline Brandnetel

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2011, 06:17:40 PM »
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.

Oh, great.  Well, I guess y'all can look forward to pics of "bubble gum tomme." :o

Yes, please! I am having slow mold development on my own so I need all the inspiration I can get!
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2011, 03:21:36 AM »
Linuxboy, Chris_Abrahamson, ArnaudForestier I LOVE PLA!!! I think it's a miracle culture. Great color and aroma development and a really nice bloom helper as both the geo and yeasts in it help balance the pH level and grow nicely. I love washing cheese with it too.  Chris, try washing with a solution as you describe and add some Mycodore to it if you have it. You will get a very typical French style Tomme.

I usually remove Geo and yeasts from a recipe that uses it (or reduce it significantly)

Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #142 on: January 30, 2011, 04:04:33 AM »
Linuxboy, Chris_Abrahamson, ArnaudForestier I LOVE PLA!!! I think it's a miracle culture. Great color and aroma development and a really nice bloom helper as both the geo and yeasts in it help balance the pH level and grow nicely. I love washing cheese with it too.  Chris, try washing with a solution as you describe and add some Mycodore to it if you have it. You will get a very typical French style Tomme.

I usually remove Geo and yeasts from a recipe that uses it (or reduce it significantly)

Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?

I am thinking on this, as I'm about to rock (with your invention, bien sur!), and thinking more on what I want out of this tomme, allowing that to guide my plan. 

I'm after a thick rind, lots of intensity; more mushroom, nuttiness and earth than other notes, so will be allowing the flora to go for a few weeks, then brushing back; will do a washed curd; and thinking of emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL. 

That said, looking at the makeup of PLA, I'm curious about the specific contributions of the arthrobacter bacteria and Debaryomyces yeast?  I do see the DH loves salt, so see its utility there (as well, its potential spoilage potential in low-salt cheeses?).  Would suspect the DH plays much the same de-acidifying role as KL, in prepping the surface for b. linens, for instance.  And presume it lends some of the same "yeasty" qualities, on further metabolism and lysis.

But don't know much else about the specific contributions of the PLA components, over going with geo, linens, KL and Myco.  (I realize the proportions are also key, and as PLA proportions aren't known, this makes comparison difficult).

Also, well, I dunno...I know this is lame, but something about using PLA over one's own witches' brew just feels like I'm using a "kit" over my own mash bill, you know?  (I know - it makes beautiful cheese...I did say it was lame :-[)
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #143 on: January 30, 2011, 09:23:21 AM »
Quote
emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL.

KL when it goes too far and overtakes is not very pleasant. And a slow linens bloom at 88% RH is really, really nice (to me). It gives an additional breakdown to the paste and increases sliceability. I'm not the world's biggest fan of KL for tommes. Prefer DH or candida utils. I like some KL in certain blues. Individual preference...

Yoav just posted my favorite rind for tommes: PLA and mycodore, and that's it. I agree, it's a brilliant culture blend, gives a rustic, very French tomme.

DH, does de-acidify, but has less of a yeasty note than KL. Arthrobacter is a coryneform, so it will help to balance out the b linens. It's a way to keep the b linens in check. Remember when we were talking about blends duking it out? This is one classic example. Two species that compete for nearly identical food, and that food is already reduced from the geo consuming it, and the geo/yeast has already colonized the surface and formed a thin mat all around the cheese. For PLA, you have a mycelium mat, and then colonies growing on top and through and interspersed with the mat. End result is that you have a very solid foundation in the geo, and then everything else comes after it.

I have PLA ratios somewhere, have to look it up, will try to post.

You can make it yourself in time. More encouraging to have success right away :). And most of us started with malt extract, then mini-mashes, then custom grain bills :)
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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #144 on: January 30, 2011, 10:20:12 AM »
Quote
emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL.


KL when it goes too far and overtakes is not very pleasant. And a slow linens bloom at 88% RH is really, really nice (to me). It gives an additional breakdown to the paste and increases sliceability. I'm not the world's biggest fan of KL for tommes. Prefer DH or candida utils. I like some KL in certain blues. Individual preference...

Yoav just posted my favorite rind for tommes: PLA and mycodore, and that's it. I agree, it's a brilliant culture blend, gives a rustic, very French tomme.

DH, does de-acidify, but has less of a yeasty note than KL. Arthrobacter is a coryneform, so it will help to balance out the b linens. It's a way to keep the b linens in check. Remember when we were talking about blends duking it out? This is one classic example. Two species that compete for nearly identical food, and that food is already reduced from the geo consuming it, and the geo/yeast has already colonized the surface and formed a thin mat all around the cheese. For PLA, you have a mycelium mat, and then colonies growing on top and through and interspersed with the mat. End result is that you have a very solid foundation in the geo, and then everything else comes after it.

I have PLA ratios somewhere, have to look it up, will try to post.

You can make it yourself in time. More encouraging to have success right away :). And most of us started with malt extract, then mini-mashes, then custom grain bills :)


Incredibly helpful, as usual, Pav, thanks.  (Yoav, thank you, as well, for all the contributions here...very helpful).  Will drop the ego, grab the PLA, and go with it an the Myco for these first (several) attempts. 

Keeping in mind that my wife bought me a beer kit for Xmas one year.  Then it was 5 carboys in a row, in a dinky apartment in Chicago. Then a 60 acre farm, a Frankenstein brewery, and Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh Malting and Brewing study, all within a couple of years.  So she will hate all of you for lighting yet another passionate spark. ;D

Now...specific suggestions (outside of blues - only one cave, at the moment, and will be holding off on blues until I've got everything else bubbling nicely, and have my chops down) for my pure-pack of KL?

(BTW - on the reblochon - planning some p. candidum and linens, together.  Presume the geo can work as the pH setup, no need for KL there, esp. as I'm not looking for any "yeasty" notes - but any KL thoughts there, why/why not, if so?....any other cheeses besides blue where KL works well...?...will be digging and thinking as well, but if some immediate thoughts come to mind, well...).

edit:  I see from Danisco that KL is intended for "flavor of soft cheese, and control of the hole formation," while DH is exactly what Pav and Yoav have been indicating, pH setup.  I did a search (useful, duh), and Yoav, see this about reblochon from your post:

Quote
I too use SR3 in my current batch of Reblochons (which are the same age as yours).  I do however use Geo 15 and KL71 as they work together to prepare the surface pH for the growth of B.Linen and to spread the rind faster and stronger. Yes, B.Linen and Geo can work without the yeast but they will grow slower and thinner so you may end up with a cheese that is too dry and not open to absorb their unique characters by the time it is covered with a good protective rind. Surface-ripened cheese relies on having aging from the outside-in so the better rind you create, the better your cheese will age.

There is another side effect to the Yeast to consider: When inoculated into the milk it apparently feeds on the sugars in the milk. As it becomes trapped in the paste with no proper oxygen supply it dies off and in that process it releases gas that contributes much to the aroma (and possible eye development).


"Control of hole formation."  Presume this means something about the rate of CO2 during fermentation would somehow be unique to KL, and given the curd moisture/elasticity, a finer "bead" of eye, if using this over other options?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:55:54 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline Brandnetel

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #145 on: January 30, 2011, 09:38:22 PM »
Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?

irf, my camera is unavailable atm, but after about 2 weeks of inoculation with rind puree per linuxboy's method and schedule, I am just now starting to see some mold forming.  I'm now getting a rather crumbly white mold spreading over the broad top and bottom surfaces of the cheeses, with just a few tiny spots of orange, which appear to be in little recesses. My cave has been at about 54 and 95-98% RH according to my sensor.

I guess I thought with this high RH I would get more b. linens and orange color at first. I used a slurry that included Port Salut and Taleggio, and it sure does stink! The white mold (geotrichium?) seems to be gaining an OK foothold now though, and I've wiped off a couple little spots of other-colored mold (green, mostly) here and there. I'm still wiping down with rind slurry every couple of days and I guess things are going OK if slowly. Will post pics once my camera is back in business.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2011, 04:06:09 PM »
I think you are doing fine from your description. I suggest you clean your hands and use them to smear your cheese all over on your daily turn in between washes. Your hands will help distribute and "infect" more areas of the cheese with flora. It will also keep the mold dense and low instead of growing high in some points and then have bold spots next to them.  If the growth is really strong, you can also use a brush once a week with a soft or medium brush. It's a quick brushing whose aim is not to clean the cheese but to merely spread the mold with the brush while micro-scratching the surface.

As for your B.Linen concerns - don't worry. B.Linen is a late bloomer. It shows up 2-4 weeks through and usually does so after the initial geo is everywhere.  The stench comes later.  How old is that cheese?

Offline Brandnetel

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2011, 07:54:58 PM »
These are just one month old now, and based on recommendations here I guess I will go with a minimum 2-3 month aging period - longer if I can stand it. But I only started the rind washing 2 or 2.5 weeks ago or so.

I will definitely try the techniques you suggest, what with the smearing and all. In particular I think I wll try to smear from where the mold is most prevalent on the broad tops and bottoms of the tommes to the rounded sides, where there is basically none at all at this point.
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Offline Brandnetel

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #148 on: February 08, 2011, 09:34:41 PM »
Finally got some pics of my goat's-milk tomme rind-in-progress, even it they are a bit sketchy:





As you can see, predominantly crumbly white mold (Geo?) has come up, with the occasional tiny spot of orange (linens?). I'm getting concerned, though, that the rind is growing too slowly. I've been following lb's recommended dunking/wiping schedule for about 3 weeks now, and what you see is all that has developed. I can feel that the cheeses are getting less springy and feel tougher/firmer, so I'm worried that they may be getting too dry?

FWIW, my 'cave' has been at about 53 degrees and varying between 85-95% RH. I kept it high at about 90-95% for the first two weeks or so of the regimen, then let it come down to about 85-90%.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
« Reply #149 on: February 08, 2011, 11:10:27 PM »
Looks good. Nice geo development. Rub your hands on the top and bottom and sides to smear and plant some of that geo everywhere.  Better if you rub it with a bit of kosher salt to micro-scratch the existing rind. It will strengthen the rind and growth. You can accelerate some mold growth with spraying a solution of your mold bacteria in a 3% brine. B.Linen is a late bloomer. Many times my wash regiment requires that I stop washing at a specific time and at that point all I can hardly see any visual signs of it.  It then comes in and grow everywhere within a week or two, even if I completely stopped washing it.  Bottom line, the B. Linen growth affects is a result of your washing, even if it shows up after you've already stopped washing.

Rind growth quality has a lot to do with the resident microorganism in your cave. Cheese likes friends. Put it with other cheese, use wooden or straw surfaces for aging, don't sanitize and disinfect your cave unless you have a reason to do that such as contamination. The cheese can also use 30 minutes of open air once in a while. It needs to breath.