hard cheese from kefir

[Bernardsmith]

I am experimenting making hard cheese from kefir made from my kefir grains. Has anyone on this forum tried this? I have three questions that you may have the answers to already.
1. In the two batches I have made I added rennet, but given the fact that the kefir already was thick with curds, is there a real need to add rennet?
2. In both batches I warmed the kefir to about 90F. Does it make any sense to experiment with , for example higher temperatures - with the idea of focusing on the growth of thermophilic bacteria in the kefir and the elimination of mesophilic cultures?
3. Insofar as I am trying to use the kefir to make variations on standard styles of cheeses - but given the fact that kefir coagulates and seems to forms curds quite differently from the way that cultured milk forms curds in the kettle - should I be using the same weights as recipes suggest or will I need to see how much pressure I need to apply to make those same "styles" (whether "cheddar" or "Feta" or "Caerphilly" etc.. 
Thanks

[AnnDee]

Hi Bernardsmith, I have been brewing kefir with grains for drinking, cooking and cheesemaking. I make few types of cheese with kefir, I add 60ml of kefir for each 4 liters of milk. I let it ripen the milk like normal for 30-90 minutes according to recipe and PH level before I add rennet. If the recipe calls for meso or thermo cultures then I heat the milk, not the kefir. 
I haven't found any difference on the making process using kefir as culture to using other culture. I press and age the same way.
By the way, I like to make camemberts using kefir, no need to add geo. I just spray PC on the cheese.

[Bernardsmith]

Ah.. Thanks An. I have been making cheese for a few months using kefir to inoculate the milk... so I am very familiar with the process you are talking about but that is not what I was asking. What I am exploring is whether I can make varieties of cheese using kefir itself. So, for example, over the course of a week I feed my kefir grains about a gallon of milk and store that gallon of kefir in my fridge. My question then revolves around that gallon - and the most effective ways I can extract the whey through pressure and whether I can develop a range of different cheeses similar to the range I can make simply by inoculating a fresh gallon of milk with a few CCs of kefir, simply by changing the temperature at which I "cook" the curds or if I wash the curds and whether since the curds have been formed through the development of acidity it makes any good sense to add rennet to kefir (it makes very good sense to add rennet to kefir inoculated milk) or whether one can obtain a firm enough curd without rennet to make say, a Caerphilly or a Cheddar?

[Gregore]

I have tried to make cheese with out rennet and the curd was too soft to press .
  And I think that the kefir will already be acidic to add rennet unless you add some milk to it to bring the ph back up .   I think just heating the milk up to 18c or above ( rennet will not gell below that temp. the k-casein bonds will be broken below 18c  ) will drop the ph even more


The higher you can bring it back up  the closer your make will be to normal makes , but that could mean adding a lot of milk.

I think almost all cheeses are drained and molded above 6 ph  going below this drastically effects the type of cheese  you end up with . From 6.1 to 6.4 ph is where most cheeses are  drained and where along the spread effects the type of cheese , in a multitude of ways I still am just getting a grasp of

I think your best bet is that if you end up,with a lot of kefir at the end of a week is to do exactly what you are doing  by adding rennet for the hard cheeses and none for the softer ones , but start recording everything you do  as it will not be long before you are the expert in this area .

I suspect you will not get a lot of different types of flavors unless you add adjuncts and or change up and affinage

[Gregore]

Also if your so inclined , I posted 2 links to  some PDF books  in the library section of this forum about the cheese making that go into all the extreme science and chemistry involved , it is very deep reading assuming one can even understand it at all.

[AnnDee]

I made some kefir cheese before and decided it was a little too tangy for me. I added salt and herbs and also cream to balance the tartness of the kefir. Because of the heat here where I am, my kefir splits at room temp if I brew over 10-12 hours. Then I normally discard the whey and hang the curd to make kefir cheese.
I haven't done what you mention, so I think you know more than me in this matter. Do you put tye rennet with the grain or after you strain it?

[Bernardsmith]

Thanks Gregore. I will look for those titles. Not a chemist  (I'm a social scientist) but I don't have a problem reading papers written in the hard sciences.  The pH of the kefir IS significantly lower than 6.1 but the two times I have tried to make a hard cheese from 100 percent kefir (and both times I added rennet) I was able to drain and press the curds and produce a round of cheese. The second block is currently air drying and seems quite firm. My plan is to allow it to air dry until Sunday evening (ambient temperature is about 60 F) and I will then cut it and see how well (or not) the curds have knitted. If I have a solid - is it called "paste"? - then I guess my next step is to see if I can produce the same or similar paste without rennet, and if I cannot then the next step might be to look for a way to reduce the pH of the kefir..(Your point about diluting the kefir with fresh milk)

@ AnnDee, I remove the grains every 24 hours and transfer the kefir produced to a large container. This container when it is full holds 1 gallon and when I have a gallon of kefir (and it may take a week or two) I have tried to make cheese using only this material. Otherwise I simply add a quarter cup or so of the kefir I made that day to either some raw milk I have bought (goat or cow) or to some fresh store bought milk.

[Bernardsmith]

Also if your so inclined , I posted 2 links to  some PDF books  in the library section of this forum about the cheese making that go into all the extreme science and chemistry involved , it is very deep reading assuming one can even understand it at all.

These books look fascinating. Thanks for posting

[Gregore]

Yes they are quite amazing books , I was looking to buy the first one off amazon but the $290 or so price tag slowed me down , and apon looking around for a better deal I found those links . Not sure why $600 dollars worth of books are being offered for free as a PDF but I'll take it.

I have no doubt that with the addition of rennet or very carful pressing one could get the moisture down low enough to make a cheese .  The only issue will be affinage is the only option to change one cheese from another .

3 main areas of cheese making are involved in creating differing cheeses. Each of them directs the cheese down a path away from other cheese types

#1. before hooping washing ,cooking , not cooking , cutting size , not cutting but scooping , all of theses things we do sets the cheese down 1 path and not another

#1.5 is pressing and the amount of moisture left in the curd ( this option is well open to you ) and can be used to direct your cheese quite a bit , though on some kefir curds it maybe taking place below ph of 5 instead of well up,near 6 ph

#2. Time of salting in relation to ph , this is the next fork in the path of cheese making  in simple basic terms it amounts to above 5.2 or so and below 5  . Above 5  melty ,bendy stretchy a little sweet  , below 5  crumbly , tangy , but it is not a line in the sand but a sort of grey area some times cheese melts below 5 ph as in buffalo mozza .

#3. Affinage  , washing , natural rind , blueing , ........

So depending on your kefir ph  you have certainly missed the first path
The second path you may have missed ( my wife also makes kefir but hers is always below 5 ) so we have missed that one too. If you have not missed this one you can have melty cheese    and can steer the cheese to quite a few type of cheese , wish we had that option.


 If you can get a paste that is quite dry there is no reason you can not age as long as any other cheese of the same moisture content.

I am thinking I should convince my wife to start making more kefir as this sound like an interesting area to explore in .

Keep us posted on your adventures

I am thinking. Next kefir cheese make to try a blue kefir

You can put the rennet in with the grain and it is supposed to float to the top though I have not tried it .

[Bernardsmith]

Gregore. Many thanks. I think what I need to do is to spend some time planning a number of cheese making experiments with the kefir and keeping detailed notes of inputs and outcomes because this may not enable me to make conventional styles of cheese but may allow me to make a variety of cheeses , nevertheless. I suspect the pH of the kefir is below 5 so, as you say, that may very much limit what I can do... but if I use those limits rather than fight them or ignore them I may be a happier camper...

[Gregore]

I think there is potential there some good if not great cheeses , looking forward to pics and tasting notes .

[Bernardsmith]

Got ya - but is there a section that makes better sense for me to psot updates to other than this problem or question section?

[Gregore]

Good question as we do not have a kefir  section