An Ah-Ha moment! Maybe

[steffb503]

I have been reading through some issues others have had with bitterness.
Over and over it was said, "too much moisture will cause too much acidity" In different phases, like not enough weight when draining, or to long a coagulation.
Maybe I am confusing dry and bitter. If I am extending the flocc time to get a softer paste, am I also over acidifying resulting in bitterness?

I know you are going to ask about PH levels. I have a meter and for the life of me I can comprehend the process, or maybe it does not work.

[awakephd]

Hmm -- I would have thought of "too much moisture = too much acidity" as "crumbly and tangy" rather than as bitter -- but maybe when a cheese is aged for a longer time, it turns into bitterness?

[Gregore]

I do not think extending floc time by a factor or 2 could effect acid all that much . Most recipes call for more than 4 hrs from molding to salting some a lot more than that so adding 15 to 30 minutes up front during gelling will not amount to much.  But mold at the incorrect ph could effect the cheese in small ways  . But I do not believe bitterness is one of them.

 Do all of your cheeses come out bitter ?  Or just some recipes?

[Stinky]

I was regularly getting cheeses that were not really pleasant when I first started doing hard cheeses. They were crumbly, acidic, and bitter. At least 1-2 of the above, quite regularly. I made a few changes to my procedures, but the one that had the biggest effect on good end times was just measuring the pH before salting. I don't have a meter, so this was usually pH strips that really weren't very accurate, but I found when I followed guidelines I ended up way less acidic than ideal.

That said, Gregore is asking valid questions. When is this happening, and when is it not happening?

[steffb503]

Hmm -- I would have thought of "too much moisture = too much acidity" as "crumbly and tangy" rather than as bitter -- but maybe when a cheese is aged for a longer time, it turns into bitterness?

Or my difficulty describing tastes!

[steffb503]

I do not think extending floc time by a factor or 2 could effect acid all that much . Most recipes call for more than 4 hrs from molding to salting some a lot more than that so adding 15 to 30 minutes up front during gelling will not amount to much.  But mold at the incorrect ph could effect the cheese in small ways  . But I do not believe bitterness is one of them.

 Do all of your cheeses come out bitter ?  Or just some recipes?

I regularly make an Emmenthal witch always comes out wonderful!
An Edam or Gouda, I would say 50/50

And yes dry crumbly and I might be calling acidic bitter for lack of understanding

[awakephd]

There are so many factors that go into the final taste and texture of cheese. Of these, at least for my own cheesemaking, pH at the point of salting is one of the most significant. Not the only one, by any means, but definitely the single most important variable that I have control over that makes the biggest difference. Next most important is probably the final moisture level of the curd.

However, I would say that pressing protocol is not the best way to control the overall moisture in the cheese, except to be sure that you are not trapping whey in the cheese by pressing too much too soon. Take this with a grain of salt, since I am no pro, but my sense is that final moisture is far more dependent on length of set (or, flocc multiplier used) and how the curds are treated - size of cut, amount of stirring, time and temperature in cooking, even to some extent cheddaring, milling, and salting. If these factors are off, giving you curds that are too wet, I don't think you can successfully adjust the moisture level by press weight. (And I'm VERY sure that if you wind up with curds too dry, you can't correct by pressing, no matter how much weight you add! As the old woodworking joke goes, "I've cut this board 3 times and it is STILL too short!")

Again, I'm no pro - maybe Sailor or someone else can chime in to correct any mis-statements above!

[Gregore]

If your not fimaliar with bitter go out and taste a dandelion leaf

First acid is more sharp and sudden when tasting and bitter can be sudden or build up but it sure lingers longer

I assume you follow a time recipe not ph as there is no mention of ph.

I think your ph is sometimes too low .

If you have trouble with a  single recipe 50 percent of the time. then I would say to measure culture  much more carefully and see if this clears up,the issue .

Next most likely is  temps and heating time consistancey.

And if you are a little sloppy on each of them it could easily cause your issue.

I know for a while there I got sloppy with with how much live starter I used as I could always check ph . Some times my ph targets were hit in 1/4 less time of the last make.

And now I am doing lactic acid set cheeses , if I use a seed mat  under the pot it can speed up ph drop from 6.6 to 4.4 in 8 hrs instead of 14 to 18 hrs

[steffb503]

I have a PH meter but have not been able to understand how to use it. It has a 2 point calibration which was on target the first time I used it but never since. Yes i did clean with the solution provided and put the storage solution on after using.
It must be me.
When I did get a reading my fresh raw goat milk was 6.1 out of the goat. Yes seems very low but there are no off taste and milk samples came back within range for every thing they test for.

My milk makes amazing fresh cheeses and when all goes well delicious aged cheese.

[awakephd]

Steff, what kind of meter do you have? The Extech that I use seems to need regular, careful cleaning using soap and water - otherwise, an oily film from the milk fat interferes with the reading. At least on my Extech, it also took me a while to understand how long it needed for the pH reading to settle based on the temperature. And of course, from time to time it needs re-calibration ... but all that said, it is one of the most helpful purchases I have made for improving my cheese making!

[LantGladstone]

generally something acidic (low pH) tastes sour/tangy (think lemon juice or vinegar or a fruity red wine) whereas something bitter is because it is the opposite of acidic i.e. basic (high pH) (try chewing and tasting an aspirin or cheese rind of a cheese that smells very strongly of ammonia or a very hoppy India Pale Ale (or if you make beer try chewing on a hop pellet)).

[kakemono]

I had an ah-ha moment with the same issue.  I used raw milk and my pot was 2 gallons.  This meant when I made a recipe for 2 gallons, I would really only fit 1, 7/8 gallon of milk or else I could not stir.  I was still using the full recipe of culture.  Between the raw milk already having cultures and the slightly less than 2 gallons of milk, I decided to cut my cultures in HALF!  The cheese has been great ever since.