Anyone make whole-wheat bread?

[Ariel301]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone on here has any luck with bread made from either entirely whole-wheat flour or part whole-wheat. My husband and I both prefer whole wheat bread, but I am having no luck making it. I can make beautiful white breads that rise and are fluffy, but when I make wheat bread, it just ends up being a brick that we feed to the goats. Since we moved from Colorado to Arizona, we've had to go to only homemade bread because none of the grocery stores in our area carry any kosher-certified breads. I'd love to try some different recipes, if anyone has any that rise really well.

I also like to do sourdough but have the same problem; it takes hours or even days to rise, and then when it does, it just sinks back down and gets hard when baked. Also, most of the recipes I find online for sourdough call for started and also pretty much the normal quantity of store-bought yeast you would use in regular bread. That seems to defeat the point of the starter, in my mind...I'd like sourdough that actually works from the starter.

I think part of my problem may be that it is so dry here. We have almost no humidity; I have to add extra liquid to any dough I make. Even white bread doesn't do as well here as it did in Colorado. So, breads that are proven to work in a desert climate would be perfect.

So, feel free to share any tips or recipes you may have. Any help is appreciated!

[DeejayDebi]

You defiately need to mix at least 1/2 the amount you used of wheat flour in white flour or you'll get lead bread. I'm not sure that was clear so let's say you have 1 lb of wheat flour then you would need 1/2 lb of white flour.

Another trick with wheat or whole grain or dark flours is to mix the them with the water (hot) or whey instead of water and let it sit for about an hour. You could even do this overnight if you want. That kind of softens the flours and activates the sugars and gluten. Then add the rest of the ingredients. It'll make a huge difference!

Wheat and dark flours need to be kneaded more than white flour!

During the last half hour of your dough rise preheat the oven for about 20 minutes at 425°F then put the bread in and turn the temperature down to 375°F.

For a cripsy crust add a pan of hot water to the oven during the preheat and leave it during the baking.

The bread is done when the internal temperature is 190°F and the bottom sounds hollow.

Hope this helps!

[linuxboy]

Just to add, I always make a slurry of water, a little bit of starter, and dough for rye and wheat breads, and let the slurry sit overnight. I got this tip from a commercial bakery and it makes a big difference.

[Ariel301]

Thanks for the advice, linuxboy.

I'm using a half-and half ratio of white flour to wheat, and it doesn't seem to work. It works pretty good to use more white than wheat, but we'd like to decrease the amount of white flour we use.

I'll try soaking the wheat flour, that's a good idea. I've tried letting the sourdough starter/water/dough 'slurry' sit overnight, and it was nice and bubbly, but after kneading and rising and baking, it just sank. I had to restart my starter because when I opened it yesterday to feed it, a bunch of fruit flies came out! They must have gotten in when I had it open last...

[homeacremom]

I made 100% fresh ground whole wheat bread before we had to go gluten free (hopefully not forever). 
Are you opposed to using commercial yeast like Red Star?

[Ariel301]

No, I have no problem with commercial yeast. I use it in some breads I make. I just enjoy making it from a sourdough culture when I can. It's more fun, I think. What I don't particularly like is when a 'sourdough' recipe calls for something like 1/2 cup of starter and 2 tablespoons of commercial yeast...to me, that's not a sourdough, it's a commercial yeast-raised bread with a bit of culture for flavor. (if people on here are making it that way, that's ok, it's just not what I like.)

I can commiserate with the gluten-free, HAM.  When we make gluten-containing meals, we have to make a special batch for my father-in-law who lives with us, as he can't handle much gluten. It seems like everyone in my household is on a different diet lol...my father-in-law is gluten-free, my mother-in-law eats anything, and my husband and I eat strictly kosher, and mostly vegetarian. We really only get meat in the fall when we butcher our excess goat kids. Hopefully you can get some gluten again in your future, even if only every now and then. It would be hard to go without bread!

I think the rising problem here has to do with the climate...it's hot and dry. My husband keeps the air conditioning in the house going full blast, so it's often only 65 degrees in the kitchen. (meanwhile, I'm running outside to warm up!) That's definitely not warm enough for bread to rise, so I end up either putting it in a warm oven or outside, but if I leave it outside, it sometimes starts to bake before it rises. I always have to add more liquid than the recipe calls for just to get the dough to stick together.

I've got another loaf in the works this afternoon. We'll see how it goes. It's starting to smell like a real farmhouse around here lol...rising bread, fresh milk, cheeses, and a crock-pot full of black beans simmering away...yum!

[DeejayDebi]

Try puttig your rising breads on top of the fridge with a box over it open to the back. That'll help add some heat.

[homeacremom]

Humidity is not an issue here where I live, but I still use a trick I learned while trying to bake bread in Africa.
Instead of adding extra liquids to the dough, which can interfere with gluten development, keep your dough covered with a clean, damp towel anytime you are not working with it. In low humidity conditions that means rewetting it every hour or two. If you use hot water to wet the towel you can compensate for a room temp that is in the low 70s.
 Use bowls or baskets deep enough so that the rising bread does not come in contact with the damp towel. If you are making a sturdy boule than you can cover it directly with a light weight cotton cloth. Otherwise make a box frame of some sort to drape with the damp towels for the finish rise once the loaves come up to the lip of the loaf pan.
Alternately you can build an insulated proofing box. Put a bowl of hot water in the bottom and maybe a small heating element and you can manipulate both the temp and humidity.

I'll try to post a recipe or two in a week or so.  I snatch computer time as it is.

For fluffy 100% whole wheat sandwich bread I did add vital wheat gluten.
Sourdough IS extremely fun. Have you ever tried desem?
There is something satisfying in taking pure, simple, whole ingredients and turning them into delicious and nourishing  foods. Even better if you plant, harvest, and preserve.... Totally takes care of the mindless eating habits that are making the general "us" unhealthy. 
 I had been working on perfecting whole wheat sourdough about 4 months before we went gluten free. My favorite true sourdough was kefir (raw goat milk) based. While it was still hearty and chewy it was not at all dry. My most sensitive guys handled that bread much better probably due to the long fermentation, but in the end we decided to try a diet plan that will hopefully reverse the intolerance completely.

[goatherdess]

I'm not familiar with humidity issues and bread baking. But I do know that hard red winter wheat has much more gluten in it than white wheat berries. What type of wheat grain is your whole wheat flour coming from? If it's the white berries instead of the red winter berries, it could be a gluten problem. Do you grind your own flour, or is it store bought?

[Jaq]

I have tried using fresh-ground wheat to make bread, and it came out like a rock.  What I read on multiple sites is that you should try using a "dough enhancer" when using wheat flours.  I made my own, but you can also purchase them.  They contain things like gluten and lecithin.  I don't remember exactly which recipe I used, but here is an example of one:
http://www.recipezaar.com/Dough-Enhancer-83011

I have not yet tried making bread again (I got caught up making cheese!) but it might help...let me know if you try it!

Jaq

[cmharris6002]

You have already gotten good info for your 100% whole wheat bread. I use a sponge method too.

For humidity you can proof you bread in a plastic box with a lid in the same as a mini cave. For even more humidity mist the bread lightly with water before putting the lid on the box.

Artisan sourdough breads take days to build. I have never found a way to do 100% sourdough in one day.

King Arthur Flour has really good recipes that work.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/yeast-breads-and-rolls

Christy

[susanne]

a good sour dough starter is one that goes around like kefir. 
it is kept in the fridge and just used over and over and over. mine is now more then ten years old.
i do not need to add any yeast to my recipie.
this is a whole rye bred just the starter rye water salt and sugar. 
for variation i use linseed and sunflower seeds.
this bread will stay fresh for a very long time.

[fuzziebear3]

Before the cheese took over my house and hobbies, I used to make a lot of bread, most of them Sourdough based, and many of them with lots of whole wheat in them.

I really like the book 'Local Breads' by Daniel Leader.

Anyway, I think you will pretty much always want some white flour or bread flour along with your whole grain flour.  Also consider adding vital wheat gluten for extra rise.

Good sourdoughs do take days/nights to make, usually starting with a sponge or a levain, and having some long rise times.  But they also have a wonderful texture that is hard to achieve in a basic 3 hour loaf. 

I don't know about the desert baking, but I think you should be able to overcome it ... people have been making bread all over the world for centuries.  If your house is cool, consider putting a pan of hot water in your oven (turned off) with the bread for rising, it will make a nice warm and moist incubator.

[Tomer1]

A 100% whole mill dough need to be highly hydrated to become airly,
As much as 75-85%!  this is not a dough for the begginer baker since its very hard to work with.
If your using a mixer be very cerful not to over mix whole mill doughs since you will destroy their gluten stracture which is weaker then strong white wheat in the first place.

Regarding inproper rise using your sourdough, I reckon you use an overripe sourdough which is essentially dead and needs alot of time to feed itself back to health in the finished dough.

[ArnaudForestier]

Just to add, I always make a slurry of water, a little bit of starter, and dough for rye and wheat breads, and let the slurry sit overnight. I got this tip from a commercial bakery and it makes a big difference.

Yes, this is what I do.  I've maintained my starter for years, building up weekly from a tablespoon of old starter to batch amounts, so there's lots of vital action in the starter when I'm ready to go.  I span it over a few days, and retard in between.  Day 1 is a slurry, as linux indicates, with 1/2 cup starter, 1/2 c bread flour, and, typically, 3/4 c water.  I say "typically" because a lot depends on the flour I'm using.  I go by feel - I'm looking for a consistency in the batch slurry that is basically like a thick cream; not a paste at all, but not pourable cream, something in between.  I allow this to work at 80ish for 4 hours, then retard overnight, anywhere from 15-18 hours. 

I then use the entirety of this slurry in my batch bread.  I tend to make a weekly or twice-weekly levain boule or batard, and use 22.5 oz. bread flour, 2.25 oz. dark rye flour, 13 oz. water (a high hydration), and 1 1/2 tbsp salt.  I got the idea of holding off on the salt for the first knead from The Fresh Loaf, a great baking forum.  This gets well-kneaded (I'm limited in what my back can handle, so I use our Cuisinart...never more than a minute or so, I look for some elasticity development, then kill it - do not want to heat the dough up too much, or go so far as to lead to gluten breakdown).  Allow to rest 30 minutes, add salt, knead through. 

Bulk ferment for 5 hours, stretching and folding every hour.  Form into final form -boule, batard, usually, in wicker and canvas - cover and retard in refrigerator, again, 15-18 hours.  I allow 1 3/4 final proofing before bake.

I bake on stones, with a trashed carbon steel crepe pan as a water reservoir - about a cup.  Starts at 500F, dropped to 400F once loaf is dropped.  I get tremendous rise.

With WW you will never achieve the rise you would get with white flour, but you will get rise.  Try a higher hydration than you would usually use, and make sure your leavening is rocking.  As others have mentioned, you will need to ensure you've got a proper knead, as well.  Finally - and this may seem counterintuitive - but one thing you can try is to proof less, or not at all, before final bake.  Just take your loaf out of cooler and bake away.  This often leads to dramatic spring.

Just an example, of what's possible, with WW.  I'd encourage you to jump around the forum, there, a lot of good info.